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Where I work, we work on components worth over $20 million with assembled units worth $1.5 Billion
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You're right on that one... my companies yearly sales are $20 million.





However, the Union shops I worked at were UPS and American Airlines.... not exactly small companies.



UPS's approximate worth: $3 BILLION

AA's approximate worth: $4 BILLION



FWIW, I can be fired for another employee damaging a part if I see him doing something wrong and I do not say something to him about it.
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I can understand that one, especially if it's an expensive part or a part related to critical system safety. It's called WORKING TOGETHER FOR THE GOOD OF THE COMPANY. However, I do wish that there were people in the company I work for that this would happen to...
 
Caymen, you talked about the "representation" that a union can provide.



I would rather have the extra coin in my paycheck and fend for myself as I'm confident in my skills, my value, and my ability to "work the system". That's right, a business is a system. Sometimes it "seems" unfair, but it is a complex system of people, brought together to maximize their value for profit.



It has been my experience that the kinds of workers that "cry" about "buddy deals", and "the system", and all that it takes to get ahead in a business or within a company are typically the lower-rung employees...those that aren't that employable. Others would say they are "mouth breathers", but I won't stoop down that low. ;)



My point...often times unions take these people that are less than employable, and through collective bargaining get them pay that is artificially inflated, and keep them in jobs longer than they should through representation.



You guys said that good companies don't need unions. Well, I will submit this:



Good employees don't need unions or representation, they make their own good fortune, high pay, and job retention. Bad employees need unions. And conversely, unions need bad employees. That's probably why certain industries, like IT, largely don't have unions. The workers have early on figured out that the industry is better off without them. People are held accountable, as are companies...and attrition rates show both (3 to 5 year tenure at companies).



Sure, you have good, skilled, people working for bad companies. But as others have said, that's "their choice!"



TJR
 
It has been my experience that the kinds of workers that "cry" about "buddy deals", and "the system", and all that it takes to get ahead in a business or within a company are typically the lower-rung employees...those that aren't that employable. Others would say they are "mouth breathers", but I won't stoop down that low.
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I am not a lower rung employee. I take resentment to that. I don't take the boss hunting, fishing, out for a cold beer or anything like that. I got to work, do my job, and go home. I don't talk about last nights football game, the winning numbers on the lottery, or how hot the new secretary is. I go to work, do my job and then go home.



What more can someone ask for in an employee?



Good employees don't need unions or representation, they make their own good fortune, high pay, and job retention.
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Keep telling yourself that, one day it might come true.



That's probably why certain industries, like IT, largely don't have unions. The workers have early on figured out that the industry is better off without them.
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That and IT people are a dime a dozen.



The company I work has some of the hardest tests to enter the company I have ever known. Before I can even schedule an interview, I must take an IQ test and mechanical aptitude exam. Once I have completed and passed both exams, I can schedule an interview. If I were getting into welding, I must then take 15 welder exam's and I am permitted to fail one, pending the NDT personal is able to remove the indication using only a leather wheel. It doesn't get removed with a leather wheel, I am back on the street. On top of that, anytime during the year, the customer can require any welder to take a random welder test again.



My training is the highest in the plant. I can get a job anywhere in the world. I spent 9 years in the field before I came to work for my current employer. Let me tell you, my new job is a breath of fresh air compared what it is like out in the field.





Tom
 
IT people are a dime a dozen...yeah, right. Actually, GOOD IT people, really GOOD IT people are quite rare...if you think otherwise than clearly you don't know the industry. Finding people that can work a line to put "tops on bottoms", that my friend, truly is a commodity and they truly are "a dime a dozen". I have worked union line jobs and I have worked my career in IT. I have a unique perspective of both sides of the fence for my opinions...do you for yours?



Seems we are on the verge of slinging mud, and I don't want that. I never called you a lower rung employ. I said "typically", and I stand behind that. Those that are stellar don't need protection, those that are "so-so" do. If you disagree with that then you are kidding yourself. Do you think Michael Jordan wanted or needed collective bargaining to make sure the entry-level basketball salaries were high enough? Of course not!



I'm not talking about you, Caymen, but generally. The reality is that unions help those that clearly cannot help or do for themselves. That is a LOGICAL statement. Why is it logical? Because you yourself will say that "Unions empower"...and you can only empower the powerless.



But for me, I'm not a victim, I'm not powerless. That's why I will never want someone representing me for a cut of my money. Others do want that, and need that...I don't!
 
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Q,



Keep on speaking brother. I really like it how you pick and choose to share your wisdom and insight. When you get beat, you resort to insults.



You are a tough guy and you know it...don't you?





Tom
 
Q, ever hear these:



- They didn't work to get ahead, it was handed to them.



- Any old chump can rise up to become a manager or run a business.



- It's who you know, not what you know.



- Sure, if I wanted to "play the game" I could get ahead too.



- The rich got the bigger tax cut.



- Executives make all their money off the sweat of the workers.





I've heard them all before, and more.



And generally, it comes from people with inferiority complexes and low self-esteem. Most successful people have one thing in common, an unwavering arrogance and self-sufficiency that has them believing that there is nothing they can't do, and nothing stands in their way.



The "type-A" personality doesn't need excuses, doesn't look "up the ladder" with contempt. Instead, they recognize that their position on the ladder is due to their own actions (or inactions) and that if they want to move up, they are the only ones stopping themselves.



I FIRMLY believe this. I have recognized long ago that Caymen does not. It doesn't make him wrong. His beliefs are his for a reason. I just can't understand the reasons for them. He sees the world and the opportunities and obstacles out there totally differently than I do. His perception is valid, because it is his. Maybe he should get out of Ohio. Last I heard it's a nowhere state! I moved out of NY and it TOTALLY changed my outlook on life.



I don't mean to bash Ohio, but it has a nationwide reputation as a depressed state that has been heading in the wrong-directly the past several decades, moreso than other states on the slide. If that's true, then I see how that could shade one's perspective.



TJR
 
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Move to Seattle with all the "Dime a Dozen IT People"...LOL j/k We have a Nuclear Plant about 100 miles away from Seattel. And, I know the software company that makes NRC run, especially, when their employees are screwing up the database on a daily basis.
 
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I don't mean to bash Ohio, but it has a nationwide reputation as a depressed state that has been heading in the wrong-directly the past several decades, moreso than other states on the slide. If that's true, then I see how that could shade one's perspective.
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Bullshit. Ohio has some of the best public education of any state.
 
Bullshit. Ohio has some of the best public education of any state.
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Right, and just like PA everyone with a brain leaves for greener pastures when they get out of school.

I only have half a brain (as I've been accused), so I still live in PA.

Less people where I live every year, not more. On the upside, everyone speaks English because immigrants are not stupid and go where the work is, which isn't here.

Every year it gets harder to stay, on top of which now the gas bill to heat my house is double what it was two years ago. I could live without A/C in Florida a lot easier than I could live without heat in PA.
 
Gavin, I never said anything about Ohio's education system. I was referring to the outflux of people, industries, and the stagnant economy...or so I have heard.
 
I don't mean to bash Ohio, but it has a nationwide reputation as a depressed state that has been heading in the wrong-directly the past several decades, moreso than other states on the slide. If that's true, then I see how that could shade one's perspective.
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Ohio has finally wised up and voted a democrat into the govenor's spot. Hopefully things will turn around.



BTW, TJR, I have worked in PA in many different places. PA is not the best place to call home.





Tom
 
Never said PA was a dream state. Western PA is called "Pennsyltucky" for very good reason. You take the burgs (Harris and Pitts), Erie, Scranton and Southeastern PA (the Delaware valley), and the rest of PA is pretty much a butthole. BUT, those areas and cities that I mentioned...quite nice. And as JohnnyO said, great places to live.



The local economy in Bucks Co, PA (where I live) is GREAT. It's booming. I have NEVER seen a better localy economy. So many small businesses around me...family run businesses that have been in business for decades. It's a great place to live, with great schools.



TJR
 
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TJR,



Spent alot of time in Erie, Karns City (Butler area), Johnsonburg (Elk County), Oil City, Emlinton, to name a few. I do like Erie, though I could not live there. Hammermill Paper closed a few years ago, GE Transportation is getting smaller and smaller. Johnsonburg is a dump. The town stinks thanks to the Wayerhaueser paper mill. The trout fishing is nice though. I can't stand Karns City. Within a short distance you have 2 chemical plants and one refinery in the valley. Oh boy, that town is safe!. Lake Arthur just outside of Butler is nice though. Emlinton is dead since Allied Signal closed down the wax refinery there.





Tom
 
Ohio has finally wised up and voted a democrat into the govenor's spot. Hopefully things will turn around
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Do you mean the state as a whole or the taxes that are being paid? Tax increases were a big part of campaign from what I heard.... Let's here it for more social programs! Everybody Now - WELFARE! WELFARE! WELFARE!



No thanks.



Arkansas just elected a Democrat as Govenor as well. However, take away the name and the (D) and just look at his platform and you'd swear that the guy was a Republican - less gun control, less taxes, less spending, better schools, tax rebates (Arkansas has nearly a $300 million SURPLUS thanks to the Republican Govenor BTW), etc.



Welder jobs aren't the only jobs that you have to test for. I did all those IQ tests and personality tests and more for a job that I didn't even accept. I am not a welder by trade but could pass several of the welder tests myself (nothing stick or MIG as I have never really messed with them), however I will defer to the welding side to you as I do it casually, not professionally.





Success in a job is a lot more than going in, doing an 8 hour day and going home when the bell rings. Putting in extra for no compensation. Networking (making good with management). Doing above and beyond. If I just came in at 7:29 and left at 4:31 everyday, I would not be going anywhere in this company. Now I am salary so there are some differences. However, there have been several recent hourly's that were promoted here recently. All of them have been interested in moving up and letting everyone know they wanted to. They improved themselves with classes/training. They put in extra. They went above and beyond. They had damn near perfect attendance for the past several years. They have always had very high marks on their reviews.



I have been asked by several people to take a position in my company that would be higher pay, higher responcibility, and directly reports to the CEO. I am one of 3 people in the company of 100 that is qualified for the position.



I wouldn't have been asked if I didn't expand my horizons. I am an electrical engineer, but the job would require more than electrical experience. I would have to know mechanical systems, machining, basic welding and knowledge of our entire product line. I didn't get those skills just be doing my expressed job of electrical design. I watched, learned, tried, failed, tried, succeeded and now I am in the position that I am in....a 29 year old with the opportunity to take a job that the rest of my "peers" (those on the same level) are all 45+.



I don't believe in stagnation, something that would have occured if I had gone Union...
 
True, Caymen, Erie is on the slide, but my point was more that there are only a handful of "oasis" type areas of PA where there is any signficant population, commerce, and the assemblage of an economy, and the rest of the state...a big nothing. Almost like driving between Nashville and Memphis in Tenn.
 
Welder jobs aren't the only jobs that you have to test for. I did all those IQ tests and personality tests and more for a job that I didn't even accept. I am not a welder by trade but could pass several of the welder tests myself (nothing stick or MIG as I have never really messed with them), however I will defer to the welding side to you as I do it casually, not professionally.
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Few backyard welders can pass a welder qualification test, even fewer can pass Navy Nuclear.



You and I are in two totally different fields and you can't fairly compare the two. Sure they both provide a paycheck to take home, but the where the similarities stop.





Tom
 

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