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Caymen,



So you are saying that our greed and our glinging to the "scarcity principle" (look it up if needed) are further reasons why we can't complete in a global economy?



TJR
 
Our "liability costs" such as hospitalzation, tax burdens, pensions,etc. are costs many reasons we are unable to compete. Our standard of living is higher than many parts of the world.



The tax structure used in the USA is not advantages to business like it is in other countries.



Many people, would cut off their nose to spite their face, such as what you replied to Gavin, to the point that if half the money spend today would help everyone, they would fight to keep from helping others just because they want to be the elite.



There are so many things that need to change, but I honestly think the only way it will change is for a new government for the USA.





Tom
 
What's wrong with having HAVES and HAVE NOTS? I work hard, got an education, make wise lifestyle and financial choices so I can drive a nice vehicle like a SportTrac. The results of my hard work and good choices mean I can take my choice of jobs that provide superior benefits like good medical insurance. I can also afford to go to the best doctors and hospitals.



I don't want to live in a country where everyone has the same level of living. Socialized medicine means that everyone has crappy care. Everyone having the same standard of living means everyone drives a Yugo or Trabant. How is this better?



We don't need a new government in the US. We just need SMARTER government that lives within its means and doesn't create leeches dependent on the government to solve all their problems and give them a good standard of living.



Let wealthy people reap the results of their hard work and good decisions.
 
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We just need SMARTER government that lives within its means and doesn't create leeches dependent on the government to solve all their problems and give them a good standard of living.



Maybe it is our government that creates the leaches and a new government will not create leaches.



Ever thought of that?



Like you, I work hard for what I have.



I am also all about looking out for my brothers. If I am spending $100.00/week for my insurance and that same money could provide the same care for 5 people, am I that greedy to say no? What advantage would I have by saying no?





Tom
 
Gavin,



The problem is that you are actually working harder and paying more than you need to for things like healthcare, which shouldn't be a perk that only the elite and upper-middle class get; or get with the flexibility, mobility and choice that so few in this country have.



I have a master's degree. I haven't made less than 6 figures in 15 years, but I have battled for years with self-employment and employers and very poor choices in quality health care. Sure, all the companies claim to have good healthcare and good coverage, but you never really know until you are with the company, and most these days simply stink. The doctors are pretty good, but the "system" stinks.



No one is saying you should "live in a country where everyone has the same level of living", and socialized medicine needn't mean that "everyone has crappy care"



We have to look at taking what WORKS from the socialized systems of Canada, Britian and elsewhere, and what works in our existing system, and remove from the equation what doesn't work in the private and the socialized systems and create something that is better than the parts. We can do that....I am sure of it. But we haven't really even tried.



What we have now stinks. It's just too costly for what you get, too inflexible, and too limiting in choices.



Spare me all the rhetoric about how socialized medicine will mean medical advances grind to a halt, etc. That's just that; rhetoric. There will always be those that innovate, invent, and lead because it "makes money", and as I said, let's take the GOOD from the other systems and keep the GOOD from our current system. HMOs, PPOs, and health insurance companies are the BAD.



Think of it this way. When something DOESN'T WORK we should get rid of it. Sure, many people can through their choices and good fortune BUY their way out of those things that don't work: poor school systems, bad neighborhoods, no or poor health insurance; but NOT all. Actually, it is the first two on that list (bad schools, bad neighborhood) that lead one to be unable to affect the third. Sure, for many of us, that's NOT OUR PROBLEM.



Yet, it is our problem. We encounter it everyday, in the increased crime we live with, in the increased taxes we pay for welfare programs, etc.



We have to STOP throwing money at things that don't work, because it just band-aids the problem, and shields the problem from those that CAN throw money...but ultimately, more and more money is needed, and the problems will reach crisis level when no amount of money can fix or cover them up...and then we are screwed.



We are almost there with healthcare....we have been there with education.



TJR
 
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TomT says:
You want to see what socialized medicine is like? Join an HMO.



No, that's not what good socialized medicine needs to look like. Most HMOs are what BAD managed care looks like.



There's a difference.



Bad HMOs, bad PPOs, bad health insurance companies; that what a large number of the employer covered people in America have, with almost no way out.



TJR
 
Why do you keep saying that the medical system doesn't work? I have great medical care, and I don't feel I pay too much for my medical care.



I have access to nearly any doctor or hospital I want to go to, and I have quite a selection of quality service providers to choose from. I get the majority of my drug costs paid, and I can see the doctor for $30 office visit.



I have great health care, and nearly everyone I know has great health care. Why do you keep saying that the system is broken?
 
TomT,



Who told you socialized medicine is like an HMO?



My mom is from Germany and my grandmother had German Health Care while she lived in Germany. She was NEVER told she could or could not have surgery like they can here.



How about our Canadian members here. How is your health care?



Please tell us what you think or are you just laughing at how America needs to get their act together?





Tom
 
Gavin asks:
Why do you keep saying that the medical system doesn't work?



I'm not saying that healthcare isn't great. Nor am I saying that the "system" doesn't work for many. For many it works quite well.



What I am saying is that overall, the system is too costly and so, so flawed.



Yes, you can see a doctor for $30. That's what you pay. The insurance company then pays often 3 or 4 times that additionally, for a simple routine office visit. That's right...for a 1/2 hour checkup the doctor can receive close to $200 or more. Often for what? To listen to your vitals; ask you a few questions, schedule another appt and/or write out an Rx.



That's criminal!



What other line of work charges $400 an hour, or more, for its professional services? In what other services industry is it commonplace to schedule appts and then not be seen until 30 or 45 minutes after you are scheduled (or later)?



Our son had an emergency appendectomy (sp?) a few years back. We paid about $500 in co-pays, and the insurance company picked up the remainder...over $16,000. Now, for my son's life I would pay any amount, but get this...I asked the doctor before he did the operation "how many of these do you do?" and he said: "Dozens a week"...and that's not all he does. $16,000...3 days and two nights in the hospital, and with the exception of the anthestitist (seperate charge), the scrub nurse, and the doctor, ALL of the other expenses are what we call in business terms "sunk cost" (things that would be paid for anyway, as general cost of running the hospital). So, where did all that money go?



Don't get me wrong, I applaud the hard work doctors and other healthcare providers do, but c'mon...the ENTIRE system can be better.



Yes, it works, for me and many...but it's FAR too costly. We don't question it because we rarely see the bills, and we pay out little out of pocket bills of $25 here, $30 there.



I've heard studies that say the average, yearly, per-family costs of most socialized medical programs in countries like Canada are actually no more than the average American family pays in "co-pays" in a year. That's right...the whole cost of running the programs for a family, providing the same average level of care, costs about what we are already paying out of pocket.



Sure, for major medical bills, and emergency operations and such, we want better coverage, and the best care possible and we equate the best with what we have in America, and no one wants to change that.



We are losing doctors in this country...it's not as lucrative a profession as it once was. The MIDDLE is taking too big a piece of the pie. That MIDDLE is the insurance companies (health and malpractice) and it means we are paying too much, more and more, for dwindling choices.



TJR
 
We have to look at taking what WORKS from the socialized systems of Canada, Britain and elsewhere

How about our Canadian members here. How is your health care?



and while your at it would you also tell us what you pay in taxes, not only property but

gasoline, hotel, restaurant and just general every day expenses and what portion of these taxes are used for socialized medicine?
 
RichM says:
and while your at it would you also tell us what you pay in taxes, not only property but gasoline, hotel, restaurant and just general every day expenses and what portion of these taxes are used for socialized medicine?



Great, a bottom-line kind of guy. I like that.



Yes, other such countries pay a lot more in taxes. But then it's hard to equate apples to oranges. For example, I pay a lot more taxes living here in Southeastern PA than someone in rural Arkansas (not slamming anyone), but then I get better services and have more opportunities available to me.



Canadians may pay more in taxes, but they arguably have a healthcare system that is better for "all people"; the same may be true of their education and law enforcement as well. I'm not aware of the "stark contrasts" in Canada that we have here in the states (that contrast being the difference in quality of life, education, healthcare, protection; provided to the different classes of people).



You mentioned sales-tax related items...I would SO welcome a shift from income TO sales tax as the basis for our taxation in this country. That would be SO nice.



TJR
 
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Lets not forget, those in Canada do not pay the income tax we do.



So, lets see, I would be willing to pay 25% sales tax on everything I buy, including food than to pay 35% income tax and then pay 6.25% sales tax to use my money.



Lets look at the big picture here. Maybe we only see the sales tax those in Canada pay, but lets look at the tax's they don't pay and how much the total actually is.



Lets also add what it would cost for us to buy our own health insurance and compare what those in Canada pay in tax's.



I would be willing to bet if you add everything together, Canadians end up paying less in tax's, get better health care, and possibly live healthier lives because of it.





Tom
 
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