Fighting for All of America

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I have worked assembly line and machine shop station jobs before (both with production quotas....fancy that), and the "skill" needed to do the jobs in both was taught to a new line worker in about 30 minutes.



That's my experience.



Sure, not all stations on the line are as skilled or unskilled as others. Regardless, it does say something when our society pays more to someone who puts "tops on bottoms" than we pay to teachers, policeman and firefighters.



TJR
 
I think this says alot too.



http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/eng/s9g.htm



and...



http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=A1B+reactor&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&linktext=A1B%20reactor



Built by overpaid, lazy, and worthless union labor.





Tom



Boilermakers Local 900
 
>> Built by overpaid, lazy, and worthless union labor.



That's Caymen again, being sarcastic with a mock put down of union members that is more harsh than the statements by anyone else on this board that have ever been critical of unions. What you say in sarcasm clearly mirrors what you think others are saying, and that is NOT what others have said or are saying on this board...at least not too such a caustic degree.



Maybe you run across such attitudes in everyday life, Caymen, but I haven't seen that kind of harsh attitude (ie. lazy, worthless) here on these boards, so you spewing that stuff here seems more like an insecure rant. We know union criticality strikes a nerve on you, Caymen, but c'mon! Can't anyone even discuss unions and union issues without you putting on the "sarcasm hat?"



TJR
 
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I don't understand what unions have to do with "Fighting for All of America". I think that is where the confusion comes from in this thread.



The only folks I have ever witnessed unions fighting for were the shop stewards and the idiot druggy machinist's helper we fired for sleeping on the job (caught and diciplined three times, using the policy). The union negotiations at the next contract were stopped until the company agreed to re-hire the fired idiot, raise his salary to $26.00 an hour, and give him back pay for the previous two years he was not working. The rest of the union members/employees were really PISSED about this too.
 
Here and there, unions are, have been, and will be necessary. Had the workers at the hospital where I used to work tried to organize, I'd have been first in line (since I left, the nurses have unionized but nobody else)...long story, no point wasting space here. However like someone else mentioned, it's possible to price oneself out of a job too. This is why there are less and less unskilled union jobs, because it's too easy to replace people with non-union workers OR send the jobs overseas where people work for $1 a day if that. Also many blue-collar union jobs were in large-scale manufacturing and smokestack industries which have been made uncompetitive in the U.S. by labor and environmental regulations, generally forced on us by the Democrat party, which strangely purports to also be the party of labor...the very people put out of work by their environmental agenda. :wacko:



The upper-level union leadership stuck their finger in the wind and long ago pretty much gave up trying to organize private sector businesses because of global competition and concentrates on organizing government employees instead, where there is a non-competitive atmosphere on both sides of the table and little limit to the amount of money available. Union wants more money, okay we'll just raise taxes. Private sector is about 8% unionized but the public sector is 53% last I looked. This gets you an incestuous relationship where the public sector unions will support so-and-so for office because he supported their contract. (By rights, the mayor of Pittsburgh and the head of the firefighters' union should be in jail for this.) Eventually taxes get high enough that people vote with their feet and move, which is happening here in Pittsburgh, the tax base declines, and taxes must be ever raised on the people who are left, and the viscious cycle starts over. Will the last one out please turn off the lights?



One of my degrees is in economics and I used to teach college econ. Two of the immutable rules of economics are that #1 everything has a cost, and #2 that all money must come from someplace. Follow the money.
 
Gavin, the whole "Unions Fighting For America" notion is no doubt part of the union indocternation. First get the members to view that their cause is patriotic and for the American good, then get them to voice that opinion whenever they can. Who would want to be against a union if they were truly "fighting for America?" Whenever anyone wraps "patriotism" around their cause I am skeptical.



I am not saying that unions aren't good for America. But are they "Fighting for America?"



Then again, are those in our military in Iraq "Fighting for America?" Sure, they are fighting and they are American, but that's not what I mean. I applaud the hard work, sacrifice and ultimate sacrifice those in our military make, so please don't get me wrong. It's just a question.



What does it really mean to "Fight for America?" Do we really know it when we see it?



TJR
 
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Just look at western Europe if you want to see what happens when unions get their way all the time. 13% or more unemployment, uncompetitive globally cost-wise, very low job growth, and half of everybody on welfare.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a level playing field, but that cuts both ways.
 
Scott, everyone can talk about "one guy they knew", but I am sure you are not trying to say that ALL union members are lazy, or that even MOST union members are lazy.
 
Right, Scott, but the isolated abuses and singular examples should not be assumed by logical, rational people to be an endictment of or an accusation of the entire group.



So, people shouldn't get so "sensitive" when one or two examples are discussed, or people are critical of unions in general, and start pulling out the "hate card" and more or less accusing everyone involved of calling union members LAZY and WORTHLESS.



It's kind of offensive when that happens. It is an attempt to SHUT DOWN discussion and that I find offensive. Kinda like when someone calls you a RACIST because you happen to observe and comment on some bad things being done by bad people during the Katrina hurricane.



I just wanted to make sure, Scott, that you weren't trying to paint all union members in that way. Let's keep the commentary civil and ongoing, everyone.



TJR
 
That is exactly my point about my post calling union members overpaid, lazy, and worthless. That is the atitude of many people here. They might not say it directly, some have in the past in other threads, but they feel that way.



Maybe they have the attitude that they wen to college and make less then someone working in a shop somewhere, they must be overpaid.



It is not different then calling ALL cops donut eaters, ALL highway workers shovel leaners, and ALL IT personal computer nerds.



Unions have done a great service to this country. Unfortunatly, not everyone feels what they have was worked for by union members. They feel that the government should make unions illegal. I totally disagree and will stand by my union.



We don't demand to be paid $100.00/hr. We dont expect alot. We ask for a fair wage with fair benefits. Most unions are that way. We only hear one side of a situation. We don't know the whole story. Many of the comments above have more behind it, but we feel we were the victim, no matter what the outcome was.



"Workers must leave premises IMMEDIATELY after clocking out". I tacked a note under it stating: "This is why the Japanese are kicking our butts." Sure enough, the next day I was called into an office with the union steward and berated for my "bad attitude".
Click to expand...



Could that have been a company policy that the union was enforcing?



Where I work, you must leave after your shift. No sticking around hanging out with your buddies. Once you get a warning from the union, then the company gets involved. One more time, and you are out the door.



Like I said, we only see things from our side. There are three sides to every story, His, Hers, and the truth.



How many here are telling the full truth or are we using it to support our stand on the unions?





Tom

 
Caymen, says:
That is the atitude of many people here. They might not say it directly, some have in the past in other threads, but they feel that way.
Click to expand...



Wow! That speaks volumes. I suggest you reread it yourself and ask yourself if it sounds a little insecure and paranoid.



I have NOT seen that attitude in two years here. Yes, I have seen people being critical, and questioning if and even stating that unions have no place in today's workplace. But, you SHOULD be able to recognize and appreciate those OPINIONS even if you don't agree with them, without accusing many here of thinking that unions members are, by and large, lazy and worthless.



Again, we must as a people be able to be critical of one another without it becoming personal and without thinking the WORST of the people being critical.



It's like when Bill Cosby was critical of young, urban blacks. He was hated and labeled a racist by his own people. WTF!



Learn from what people have to say and to learn you have to first listen. Don't always assume the worst in their meaning and intent. That is advise for BOTH SIDES of this discussion.



TJR
 
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I should have worded the Category/Topic a little better, such as "Fighting for

a Good Wage in America". No disrespect meant to our fighting men and women

in the military, since they ARE the ones Fighting For America!!!

I appreciate all of your replies, although I just "skimmed" many of them. As soon

as things get back to normal here, I'll be back on a regular basis (good or bad!?!?).

Thank you all for your replies. I did not expect so many, especially in such a short

time!

I do agree, the Union has to change, and be more competitive, itself. Getting rid

of the slackers and the malfeasants is a good start, and we are starting to do that

in Spring Hill, already, and most of the people I work with are all for it!

The "Bad Ones" bring us all down, and we have started to "weed out" the bad

ones.

Thanks, again, for the replies and concern!

Like what they say "What don't kill ya' will make ya' stronger!!!"



Bless You All, See Ya' Later...TNB...:D
 
Fighting for America means different things to different people. It would be hard to find a definition that suits all people. I guess John F Kennedy put it best when he said, "And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."



I also penned this little story a while back in this forum. It may suit this thread.



re: So, do you still think there was no coordination? by NelsonOKC, 8/27/2004 15:39 CT



It is shameful how this generation (referring to both the Baby Boomers and X Generation) is putting their personal needs before the needs of their country.



If this happened during WWII the Germans and Japanese would have won the War. Instead, the Americans of that age took up arms and fought a War on foreign soil. Certainly, Pearl Harbor was the catalyst that sparked that fight, but more people were killed in the World Trade Center than were killed in that attack (Pearl Harbor -- 2,117/WTC -- 2,750).



The Americans during WWII never forgot those lost lives. They made a commitment to winning that war, and won at all costs.



The War was a huge investment, and it changed American society. Women entered the work force for the first time in great numbers to fill the vacancies left by their husbands and fathers fighting the war. These women built the ships, aircraft and vehciles required for the soldiers.



The families sacrificed in the home too. They grew Victory gardens to help feed their familes, so that the crops in the bigger farms could be sent overseas to feed the troops. There were many other sacrifices, that only they know about.



Comparing that level of patriotism to the patriotism displayed by the MAJORITY of Americans today would be an insult to the generation of WWII. What we call patriots today, would just be considered being a good citizen back then.



My Grandfather was drafted into the Army at the age of 42. He went to basic training, and left my grandmother, my dad and aunt to support themselves for TWO YEARS!. He left a good job to earn a pittance as a foot soldier/baker in Okinawa. He didn't complain. It was HIS DUTY, and he was proud to be able to serve. This happened all across America.



How many people do you know today or even from the Vietnam era that would be willing to leave their good-paying job at the age of 42, and fight a War in Iraq or Afghanistan? I bet you would be able to count them on one hand, if you could find even one.



Patriotism -- we barely even know what is means anymore.
Click to expand...
 
Many benefits the American workforce enjoy were fought hard for by the Unions. Vacation time, Holiday pay, overtime pay, fair wages, etc. were fought for by hard working union men and women.



Unions have done a great service to this country.
Click to expand...



You forgot one very important, significant contribution to this country made by unions, specifically the Teamsters:



Vegas, Baby!:cool:... Built with "loans" to the Chicago Outfit and New York Mafia by the Central States Teamsters Pension Fund, the Mob's own personal bank in the '50's and '60's.
 

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