Getting serious - OT
- Thread starter Bill Ellis
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Mike Wilson
Well-Known Member
What is the difference between a conservative and a liberal???
A liberal is just a conservative that hasn't been mugged yet!
We as a country give BILLIONS of dollars and humanitarian aid to many of the other countries in the world to help them, and what do we get in return ?... 9-11-01. Thats What.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
OK, now that it turns out that the guy they shot and killed wasn't a terrorist at all, but an innocent Brazilian electrician--which of you shoot-first-and-learn-the-truth-after-it's-too-late conservatives wants to eat your helping of crow first?
Kevin Palmer
Well-Known Member
Although it did turn out to be an innocent man I can easily understand how it happened and feel I would have done the same thing.
Basically, he did not listen to police commands and was wearing articles of clothing that did not fit the local weather or environment.
He did not stop when he was told to and he did not raise his hands when told to. I did not read the report enough to see if there was a language issue at this point.
As bad as it is as an end result I am pretty sure some good will come of this. If your a terrorist you will think twice now....
Basically, he did not listen to police commands and was wearing articles of clothing that did not fit the local weather or environment.
He did not stop when he was told to and he did not raise his hands when told to. I did not read the report enough to see if there was a language issue at this point.
As bad as it is as an end result I am pretty sure some good will come of this. If your a terrorist you will think twice now....
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
I'll eat my helping of crow...even though I hadn't posted in this thread yet. Failure to comply with officials nowadays WILL get you shot. Why do you think those guys at the airports are standing there with M-16s? If someone were just to start running down the terminal ignoring officials telling him to stop, I have no doubt that he would be shot...as long as there were very few bystanders. The world is different, and it is no longer okay to ignore someone yelling at you to stop and waving a gun.
As far as a language barrier...pointing a gun at someone means pretty much the same thing in any language. If I were in Russia, China, India, France, wherever, and someone yells something at me and points a gun, I don't think I'd have a problem getting what they were saying.
As far as a language barrier...pointing a gun at someone means pretty much the same thing in any language. If I were in Russia, China, India, France, wherever, and someone yells something at me and points a gun, I don't think I'd have a problem getting what they were saying.
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
Actually, If I had a gun pointed at me, and someone is screaming at me in another language, I probably would try to escape. Fortunately, I wasn't that poor innocent Brazilian. I'm sure that if this incident involved an American being shot by the police in France, that there would be a huge outrage in this thread. It just goes to prove how ego-centric the average Americans are. 
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
Okay, howabout 20+ people waving guns at you. And no, I wouldn't feel sorry for an American either. I'm sure most of the US population would, though.
Oh, and Nelson, I wouldn't be that worried about being shot in France...lol.
Oh, and Nelson, I wouldn't be that worried about being shot in France...lol.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V...with seeming vitriol and bile...says:
None of us were there on that platform when this guy got killed. I dunno the reasons why the police felt compelled to kill him. I am sorry that he got killed.
However, the overly hyphenated label (shoot-first-and-learn-the-truth-after-it's-too-late conservatives) is angry name calling and clearly part of the problem in our society today, IMHO. Part of the problem, because if you are pro-cops and tough on terrorism then you are labeled by others as a “nutjob conservativeâ€; nutjob I say because clearly no one really want to shoot first and then ask questions later... DUH!
I would hope that we can agree to disagree without reverting to labels and name-calling.
But, make no mistake, am I NOT for cops playing executioner. But, as I said in my post before, I am also not for coddling terrorists. For whatever reason, reasons we don’t know, the cops thought it best at that time to take this guy out!
TJR
None of us were there on that platform when this guy got killed. I dunno the reasons why the police felt compelled to kill him. I am sorry that he got killed.
However, the overly hyphenated label (shoot-first-and-learn-the-truth-after-it's-too-late conservatives) is angry name calling and clearly part of the problem in our society today, IMHO. Part of the problem, because if you are pro-cops and tough on terrorism then you are labeled by others as a “nutjob conservativeâ€; nutjob I say because clearly no one really want to shoot first and then ask questions later... DUH!
I would hope that we can agree to disagree without reverting to labels and name-calling.
But, make no mistake, am I NOT for cops playing executioner. But, as I said in my post before, I am also not for coddling terrorists. For whatever reason, reasons we don’t know, the cops thought it best at that time to take this guy out!
TJR
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Bill V
Well-Known Member
TJR, I have nothing against being pro-cops, or tough on terrorism. However, many (granted, it's not all) of the self-proclaimed conservatives on this board have in one thread or another expressed open enthusiam for vigilante justice. Even within this thread, several people (not including yourself) saw the events in London as an opportunity not only to celebrate someone being gunned down, but also to bash liberals for their support of due process. They're so hungry for blood, that they don't care whether it comes from the enemy, or ends up being their own. And from that perspective, IMHO the only thing wrong with my admittedly overly hyphenated description is the fact that it is overly hyphenated.
Note--I am not at all saying that this description is applicable to all conservatives. Instead, I was using the description to narrow the scope of my comments to the subset of conservatives that fit that description.
Also note--I am not at all saying that the British cops did anything wrong. I don't know enough about what actually happened there and why they felt it necessary to do what they did, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt unless future evidence indicates they acted improperly. However, I do find alarming and disturbing how quickly people on this site and elsewhere jumped to the assumption that the cops were 100% right and that this person was a "terrorist wacko", and that they hope he "felt every bullet", without allowing the facts to come out first.
Note--I am not at all saying that this description is applicable to all conservatives. Instead, I was using the description to narrow the scope of my comments to the subset of conservatives that fit that description.
Also note--I am not at all saying that the British cops did anything wrong. I don't know enough about what actually happened there and why they felt it necessary to do what they did, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt unless future evidence indicates they acted improperly. However, I do find alarming and disturbing how quickly people on this site and elsewhere jumped to the assumption that the cops were 100% right and that this person was a "terrorist wacko", and that they hope he "felt every bullet", without allowing the facts to come out first.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V, you tend to sound like you are coming off all noble now. Yet it seems you were picking a fight from your first post in this thread about "predictability" of conservatives. You have a lens through which you are looking at others that you call "conservatives", and I fear that this lens leads to stereotyping. And, stereotyping is the little brother of bigotry. I don't like labels because thye divide; and they divide usually to demean the other while raising oneself.
I don't think of myself as conservative, nor liberal, because, frankly, I have differing, often contradictory viewpoints on different subjects (religion, abortion, gay rights, war, capital punishment). As I have shared these views, most have seen the contradictions as logical, some as illogical, and many have labeled me a “moderateâ€â€¦.but that too is just another label. And, some groups (Christians, “conservativesâ€) have observed my views on one thing or another and then used these views to alienate me from them as if I failed some litmus test.
Labels just don't help. And assuming the way a person feels about a single subject makes them fit into some neat little category is "simplistic". If anyone is truly far-right and conservative on all issues, or completely left-wing liberal on all the polar issues, then I for one haven't found them yet.
Would there be hardcore conservatives without bleeding heart liberals? Why is it US vs THEM all the time?
TJR
I don't think of myself as conservative, nor liberal, because, frankly, I have differing, often contradictory viewpoints on different subjects (religion, abortion, gay rights, war, capital punishment). As I have shared these views, most have seen the contradictions as logical, some as illogical, and many have labeled me a “moderateâ€â€¦.but that too is just another label. And, some groups (Christians, “conservativesâ€) have observed my views on one thing or another and then used these views to alienate me from them as if I failed some litmus test.
Labels just don't help. And assuming the way a person feels about a single subject makes them fit into some neat little category is "simplistic". If anyone is truly far-right and conservative on all issues, or completely left-wing liberal on all the polar issues, then I for one haven't found them yet.
Would there be hardcore conservatives without bleeding heart liberals? Why is it US vs THEM all the time?
TJR
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Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
I think you guys are off-base on this issue. This has nothing to do with conservatives vs. liberals. It has everything to do with making sure that our people are kept safe, but not at the cost of innocent lives. Sure mistakes will occasionally be made, but justice isn't served by folks having a "shoot to kill" policy regarding anyone who acts suspicious.
Even in the military, there are rules of engagement that must be followed to prevent the loss of innocent life. There also is the rule of proportionality which is in the Geneva Conventions. It prevents a country from taking a "nuke 'em all and let God sort them out" attitude. Killing someone and asking questions later violates this ideal. Civilized countries for the most part adhere to these laws of armed conflict. Just because terrorist don't follow these rules doesn't mean we should stoop to their level and forget them ourselves.
Anyone who has read my previous posts over the past year know I am not a "bleeding heart liberal". I also don't consider myself a "staunch conservative". I have taken the "moderation in all things" view, and consider myself a moderate. A little moderation on everyone's part would serve us well in these days of divisiveness and extremist politics.
Even in the military, there are rules of engagement that must be followed to prevent the loss of innocent life. There also is the rule of proportionality which is in the Geneva Conventions. It prevents a country from taking a "nuke 'em all and let God sort them out" attitude. Killing someone and asking questions later violates this ideal. Civilized countries for the most part adhere to these laws of armed conflict. Just because terrorist don't follow these rules doesn't mean we should stoop to their level and forget them ourselves.
Anyone who has read my previous posts over the past year know I am not a "bleeding heart liberal". I also don't consider myself a "staunch conservative". I have taken the "moderation in all things" view, and consider myself a moderate. A little moderation on everyone's part would serve us well in these days of divisiveness and extremist politics.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I agree Nelson. When the conservative and liberal labels come out, all hopes of constructive discussion goes out the window. My posts weren't meant to defend either ideology; but instead to say we need to stop beating people over the head with labels.
TJR
TJR
Bill V
Well-Known Member
TJR--I'm not the one who was picking the fight. The fight was being picked when TomT threw out the first liberal-bashing comment in the thread, claiming they're way off base just because they don't condone vigilanteism--a series of posts whose name-calling and stereotyping you are conveniently ignoring. My responses were simply defending the just cause.
Because THEY always insist on it.
Because THEY always insist on it.
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Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
BTW, the average Jose from Brazil would probably wear a jacket in London, since the average temperature in Brazil is quite a bit warmer than London.
Eric Pennal
Well-Known Member
This story also demonstrates that when a suspect runs, it's not always because he's guilty (something a lot of people assume). This poor guy was being chased by armed, plain-clothed, men. Most of us would run, under those circumstances.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
>> Most of us would run, under those circumstances.
I wouldn't.
TJR
I wouldn't.
TJR
Jose Santana
Active Member
EricP is right, the police were in plain clothes... Who's to say what he was thinking, maybe he thought he was getting mugged, maybe they were far anough away he felt he had to run...
Whatever the reason, it is a sad situation. I was skeptical of how it went down from the start and I listened to Rush Limbaugh, Howie carr and all these right wingers including guys I commute with everyday salivating and giving high fives over this. Now the truth comes out and still they continue to justify this killing... As a minority myself with brown skin and dark hair it definitly does not sit well with me, and it should not sit well with any minorities in this country. I am not trying to start anything but this issue of profiling scares me. These terrorist bombings happening in Ireland over the past so many years, did Anglo Irish civil rights gets stomped on to justify finding killers?
Whatever the reason, it is a sad situation. I was skeptical of how it went down from the start and I listened to Rush Limbaugh, Howie carr and all these right wingers including guys I commute with everyday salivating and giving high fives over this. Now the truth comes out and still they continue to justify this killing... As a minority myself with brown skin and dark hair it definitly does not sit well with me, and it should not sit well with any minorities in this country. I am not trying to start anything but this issue of profiling scares me. These terrorist bombings happening in Ireland over the past so many years, did Anglo Irish civil rights gets stomped on to justify finding killers?
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I still wouldn't run. If in a foreign land where I don't speak the language, if a bunch of people started yelling at me and pointing a gun in a crowded public place, I would put my arms up and freeze. Clearly its isn't a stickup, and I know that I am not some "secret agent", nor have I done anything wrong.
I know that it isn't politically correct anymore to require that people have personal responsibility. Responsibility to be able to speak the language of a country you wish to work in; responsibility of being aware of the socio-political climate of the country you are in and what might be considered "suspicous" activity given that current climate (e.g. carrying a package into the tube, or wearing clothing that is concealing and contrary to the current climate).
I am NOT blaming this guy, nor even saying he is responsible. However, I am just asking a question in general...in times of war like this, can't we assume a little more responsibility without getting all bent out of shape about our civil liberties. Don't quote the old "those that give up liberty for temporary safety deserve neither" line...I have heard that one before.
TJR
I know that it isn't politically correct anymore to require that people have personal responsibility. Responsibility to be able to speak the language of a country you wish to work in; responsibility of being aware of the socio-political climate of the country you are in and what might be considered "suspicous" activity given that current climate (e.g. carrying a package into the tube, or wearing clothing that is concealing and contrary to the current climate).
I am NOT blaming this guy, nor even saying he is responsible. However, I am just asking a question in general...in times of war like this, can't we assume a little more responsibility without getting all bent out of shape about our civil liberties. Don't quote the old "those that give up liberty for temporary safety deserve neither" line...I have heard that one before.
TJR
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
So as a person in the military, I should be required to be fluent in the language of any country I am serving in? If they don't know the language, then the police have a right to kill them? Get real!
Tourists and other people only spending a short time in a country shouldn't be expected to know the local language. I learned some basic Portuguese and Turkish when I was in those countries, but I couldn't even figure out the alphabet in Korea.
Like I said, Americans are very ego-centric and myopic when it comes to other countries and cultures. Protecting our country does not mean we have to give up our civil rights, least of which the right to live.
Tourists and other people only spending a short time in a country shouldn't be expected to know the local language. I learned some basic Portuguese and Turkish when I was in those countries, but I couldn't even figure out the alphabet in Korea.
Like I said, Americans are very ego-centric and myopic when it comes to other countries and cultures. Protecting our country does not mean we have to give up our civil rights, least of which the right to live.
Fer Echegaray
Well-Known Member
I think Nelson hit it in the head with the cultural differences comment..
You would not run becuase your cultural background would kick in in your subconcious mind and tell you that perhaps they're law enforcement agents.
But what if you were native to a country where a guy in plain clothes with a gun means almost 100% that you're going to get kidnapped (in the best case) or killed just to rob you a $10 wrist watch?
We were not there, we do not know the circumstances so we can't really pass judgement.
