Getting serious - OT

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TJR, How about:



"The easiest liberties to give up are someone else's"



or



"The most certain test by which we judge whether a country is really free is the amount of security enjoyed by minorities."
 
Sorry, but I am a little late to this thread.



Bill V - Yes we Conservatives are all about torture. Such horrible affronts to humanity as underwear on the head, doggies barking and growling while on a leash, women standing too close to the poor little Jihadists, invading their personal space, mishandling their precious Koran while having feces flung on us, three square meals a day prepared to Islamic standards from a menu of over 110 items, etc. etc.



That is torture by any standard. Excuse me while I go vomit.



Regarding language and culutral difference - the dead guy SPOKE FLUENT ENGLISH and had lived in England long enough to know that he wasn't being robbed. A foreign person living in a country that has just been bombed twice by a bunch of guys who look like him should probably be VERY CAREFUL how he reacts to cops.



It wasn't A guy, it was a bunch of guys and the ones that I saw on tv, look like cops.



Why would he think he was being robbed at gunpoint in England? There is practically NO gun crime in England, just ask HCL or any other anit-2nd Amendment group. You can get your a$$ kicked in a blink of an eye, maybe even stabbed, but you are extremely safe from getting shot. Unless you look and act like a terrorist a few days after a bombing.
 
Nelson said:
So as a person in the military, I should be required to be fluent in the language of any country I am serving in? If they don't know the language, then the police have a right to kill them? Get real!



I am real, and I didn't say that, Nelson. I never said "required" and I never said "fluent". Seems to me, however, that learning how the locals would say: "STOP" and "POLICE" isn't too much to ask, even for a tourist. Even an arrogant American like myself learned some Italian when I went to Italy so that I could say things like: Emergency, Police, Rest Room, Help, etc.



Regardless, I wasn't so much talking about tourists, or talking about military personnel. I am talking about someone who works in a country for a long period of time and needs to mainstream (I am NOT saying this Brazilian fit that definition but there are some reports that he did). Military personnel aren't required to mainstream are they, what with commissaries and on-base housing, etc? (I am asking...I only know what I know from my ex-military family members). The military seems to create a little "mini-America" for them at most large installations (again, correct me if I am wrong).



Fer said:
You would not run becuase your cultural background would kick in in your subconcious mind and tell you that perhaps they're law enforcement agents. But what if you were native to a country where a guy in plain clothes with a gun means almost 100% that you're going to get kidnapped (in the best case) or killed just to rob you a $10 wrist watch?



This gets back to my point and the point that Dale seems to be making. You have some responsibility to know the culture and the current climate, don't you? Case in point; there are Central American countries that we as American tourists are told to avoid because you can be kidnapped easily; and therefore, if I went to one, I would be on guard. That would be my responsibility given what I know and what is known about these countries.



Someone in England during this time should be aware of the bombings and act accordingly and expect the police to be on the lookout. It would be like if I drove around Virginia/DC with a sniper rifle a few years back when the suburban sniper was hitting everyone. Wouldn't it be MY responsibility to know that law enforcement might consider the rifle in my vehicle suspicious?



TJR
 
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BTW - I just read an article in which de Menezes told his father "They don't have violence. It's good there; nobody walks around with a gun.''



That goes a long way to negate the "cultural differences" argument that he thought he was being robbed. He KNEW that he was moving to a country that was different from his own.
 
That goes a long way to negate the "cultural differences" argument that he thought he was being robbed. He KNEW that he was moving to a country that was different from his own



That justifies everything! Seems some folks look at everything in black and white. (no pun intended). The only thing we know surrounding the circumstances is what the POLICE have let out. The guy spoke english so that was no the issue. Who knows if they even asked him to stop first, whatever it is the guy didn't deserve to die....
 
Joseymack, I don't see everything in black and white, but I won't bend over backward to defend a guy I know nothing about who did several really suspicious and STUPID things. I am not justifying anything, but I am explaining and responding to other theories and statements made in this thread.



Since he didn't "deserve" to die, is it the cops fault?



Let's revisit the basic facts. FACT - two series of bombings on London trains in two weeks. FACT - de Menezes left a house that was under surveillence (if a mulit-unit he may not have know of any terrorist activity inside) FACT - he was pursued by several guys yelling for him to stop (that from several witnesses as reported), FACT - he was wearing a large coat in summer heat FACT - he was carrying a backpack FACT - he ran ONBOARD a train after jumping a ticket gate.



Given those FACTS, the cops did the ONLY reasonable thing.



Is it reasonable for the cops to assume that he was a bomber? Of course not, it is far more reasonable to ignore all of those FACTS and assume the cops didn't react properly. SARCASM ALERT!!!



Better question - Given those directly observed facts, given the hundreds of innocent people on those trains, let's pretend that YOU have to make the call for the cops. Tell me EXACLY what you would do? Quick, you only have a few seconds while adrenalin is rushing through your veins and you are chasing the guy on to the train.



BTW, the cops shot him in the head so the bomb he may have been wearing wouldn't go off. Smart. Thinking pretty clearly. Hard fro me to second guess them.
 
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While on vacation, I heard about the guy that was shot being innocent. Oh boy. I KNEW when I got home I would be sure to be reading a type of 'see how wrong and stupid you are?' celebration on this subject. I'm not going to eat crow for anyone. I am truly sorry for this guy. Sadly enough, bad things do still happen to good people. Like the people in the WTC.



I know that political, moral, terrorist and social subjects are ALWAYS going to become a name-calling, "I'm smarter than you because..." diatribe on here, oh well. This country is becoming more and more divided. Almost like it's lining up for another civil war. And believe it or not, name caller, I hope that never happens.



Oh yeah, regarding terrorists (WACKOS), I still predict that if they were ALL shot to bits, I would applaude it!



Sorry to post again on this old subject. I won't waste any more of my time or yours on this one. We'll all NEVER agree on this junk no matter how much arguing and/or name calling goes on.
 
Timeline: Tube shooting



Mr de Menezes was "positively identified" as a suspect

As leaked documents appear to throw new light on the mistaken shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, BBC News Website looks at the passage of events which led to his death and what followed.

21 July: Two weeks after suicide bombs rocked London, the capital is again targeted



London's transport network is plunged into chaos with stations cleared after attempted bombings on Tube trains at Oval, Warren Street and Shepherd's Bush Underground stations and on a number 26 bus in Bethnal Green.



A manhunt is launched for four men suspected of attempting the bombings, later named as Yassin Hassan Omar, Ibrahim Muktar Said, Ramzi Mohamed and Osman Hussain.



22 July: Police have been monitoring a flat in Scotia Road, Tulse Hill, south London, which they believe is linked to the failed bombings.



At 0930 BST John Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian electrician, is seen walking to a bus stop and boarding a bus heading to Stockwell Tube station.



Despite initial reports he was wearing a padded coat, leaked papers suggest Mr de Menezes is in a light denim jacket.





Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder



According to a leaked report officers believe his "description and demeanour" matches one of two terror suspects, including the alleged Shepherd's Bush would-be bomber Osman Hussain.



One surveillance officer at the Tulse Hill address says he "checked the photographs" and thinks it is "worth someone else having a look".



He is quoted in the leaked report saying that he was unable to transmit his observations and turn on his video camera at the same time. "I was in the process of relieving myself."



After information is passed through the operations centre, gold command instructs that the suspect be stopped from getting on the Tube.



The operation is moved to "code red tactic" and handed over to CO19.



By 1000 BST CCTV footage shows Mr de Menezes entering the Tube station at a "normal walking pace".



Early accounts of the shooting had described him vaulting over the ticket barriers, running to the Tube train and tripping over before being shot - but leaked evidence states that CCTV pictures show him picking up a free newspaper and slowly descending on an escalator.



He is then said to have run across the concourse to catch a train, boarded, looked left and right and then sat down on the first available seat.



At that point, armed officers are "provided with positive identification", the document says.



Following shouts including the word "police", Mr de Menezes gets up and advances towards the CO19 officers, a surveillance officer is quoted to have said.



A member of the surveillance team describes grabbing him and holding him down.



According to the report, he said: "I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.





ITV images show Mr de Menezes lying dead in a Tube train



"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting...I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage."



Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, according to the post-mortem examination.



Three other bullets missed their target.



By 1050 BST news of the shooting breaks in the media.



Reports emerge that a suspected suicide bomber has been shot at Stockwell Tube.



One eyewitness says he saw about 20 police officers, some of them armed, rushing into the station before a man jumped over the barriers with police giving chase.



Another witness said the victim looked Pakistani and was wearing a thick winter coat.



He des
 
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