Bob Alcaro
Active Member
Good old American Manufacturers..............let's support them!
http://www.madeinusa.com/
http://www.madeinusa.com/
Goodbye American Car.
- Thread starter Bob Alcaro
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
PlymBob,
Frankly, "Made In The USA" campaigns tend to insult my intelligence and have the opposite of the intended affect on me.
If i have to be compelled to buy American out of some "feel good" sense of "patriotism", then to me, that's saying that American made products are inferior; needing some subsidy and aid in competing; as if they can't stand on their own.
The most American way I know how to spend my money is on the best product for me, regardless who makes it and where it is made. America is supposed to be about freedom.
Why not take those freedoms and MAKE THE BEST DARN PRODUCT that every American wants to buy, and not have to "lapel pin", bumper sticker, and shame Americans into buying???
TJR
Frankly, "Made In The USA" campaigns tend to insult my intelligence and have the opposite of the intended affect on me.
If i have to be compelled to buy American out of some "feel good" sense of "patriotism", then to me, that's saying that American made products are inferior; needing some subsidy and aid in competing; as if they can't stand on their own.
The most American way I know how to spend my money is on the best product for me, regardless who makes it and where it is made. America is supposed to be about freedom.
Why not take those freedoms and MAKE THE BEST DARN PRODUCT that every American wants to buy, and not have to "lapel pin", bumper sticker, and shame Americans into buying???
TJR
gary s
Well-Known Member
"Caymen,,step in and give your explanation, thanks"
geeez eddie, if tom is your life line i would reconsider :bwahaha:
geeez eddie, if tom is your life line i would reconsider :bwahaha:
A K
Well-Known Member
@ Tom:
I applaud your attempt to buy domestic. I'm the same way. In fact, it was the main reason I bought Polaris when I was shopping for a SxS.
Take a read through this:
http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made-pg328.htm
It's so very difficult to find a pure American mountain bike these days....
I applaud your attempt to buy domestic. I'm the same way. In fact, it was the main reason I bought Polaris when I was shopping for a SxS.
Take a read through this:
http://allanti.com/articles/where-was-my-bike-made-pg328.htm
It's so very difficult to find a pure American mountain bike these days....
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EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
Thomas,,Fact we could no longer compete with the new modern foriegn factories, our tax dollars paid for, after the wars.. Economics here couldnt modernize our factories. Steel mills around here shut down due to age. Not the unions fault. Wages and beanies did not increase anywhere close to the cost of living. Some of you needed to see. How union wages are in the south, the last 40yrs in comparison. I know personaly as a 40yr member. As a educated proccess control instrument tech and having to guide the engineers, that should have been smarter than me. My total package after 36yrs was only $35. Most union members here live simple. Many union members(in my houston industrial area) that have Houses over 1200sqft. Worked a hell of alot of over time. In my life many of us didnt see much of our fathers. Unions here mainly protected our jobs from the tyrant attitudes of bad managment.
gary, Tom and I dont agree on everything. I think we do have an insight on the fair treatment of labor. Things havent changed from those that own the factories and get the the oversized bonuses and salaries. That could have been put back into the modernization of American factories. I have some doozie of some stories, about the owners ofwere I worked. The last 5yr they would have been in prison, if they they had share owners. If unions were outlawed. Labor, including non union would step backwards 50yrs. Living in shanties and duplexes and shared housing. Anything other than food, housing and a shirt on my back, would be a luxury.
You could work as hard as expected,but. If your boss didnt like the way you picked your nose, you would be fired. His nephew would get your job.
As much as you think human nature has changed, it hasnt. IMO people in this nation have gotten more Godless in actions towards his fellow man. Im not delusional. I can observe and come to very lucid and cognitive conclusions without propadanda or brainwashing.
Rant over...
Well said Eddie. I know on many issues, you and I do not see eye to eye.
My father was in the Auto Industry for 43 1/2 years. Towards the end, he was making $75,000/year.
Gasp, you all scream. A low skilled auto worker making less than a highly educated IT professional! You have got to be kidding me.
Yup, he worked lots of overtime. More overtime than most of you can imagine.
If he made the $50.00/hr BS the media sings, working straight 40 hours per week would make him 104,000/year. Of course, not many of us can actually do the math to figure out how much BS it really is.
Tom
My father was in the Auto Industry for 43 1/2 years. Towards the end, he was making $75,000/year.
Gasp, you all scream. A low skilled auto worker making less than a highly educated IT professional! You have got to be kidding me.
Yup, he worked lots of overtime. More overtime than most of you can imagine.
If he made the $50.00/hr BS the media sings, working straight 40 hours per week would make him 104,000/year. Of course, not many of us can actually do the math to figure out how much BS it really is.
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Caymen said:
Are you being sarcastic again, or do people really scream that? I didn't scream that.
I know landscapers that make more per year than engineers. I'm fine with it. They run their own business; they work hard; they take risks. That's all fine by me. For me, risk, reward, value provided, demand, all these things should come into play when compensating someone.
My major problem with unions has always been that the protectionism and the collective bargaining they provide tends to "bully" companies into paying more in salaries, and also reduces the pool of candidate employees.
It is the same reason I don't like regulations on companies that tell them who they can, and can't employ (within legal reason), and where they can and can't manufacture their products.
If people are valuable, if people are skilled, if people seek a wage that is equitable given the market then they should be able to offer their skills and their services on the open market with confidence that they will get top dollar because they are valuable. If they need to band together, create a club of elite workers that close out competition, then that tells me that these people are NOT confident in their skills and their value.
That has always been my problem with unions. I've never met the really valuable person, confident in their skills and their employability WANT to be in one. They would rather run their own company or work for (and move up in) a company that recognizes their value and their individuality.
Now is where Caymen will give stories about non-union companies, and abuse. How "favorites" and "drinking buddies", etc get all the special treatment and all the promotions and raises. I won't try to say those things don't happen. They do. Likewise, there is a part of workinig for a company that, like it or not, comes down to social graces and social skills. Like it or not, but much of the business world IS a popularity contest. Those that don't like that probably should run their own business or move to a country where working in a back room and putting tops and bottoms still pays a living wage.
TJR
Are you being sarcastic again, or do people really scream that? I didn't scream that.
I know landscapers that make more per year than engineers. I'm fine with it. They run their own business; they work hard; they take risks. That's all fine by me. For me, risk, reward, value provided, demand, all these things should come into play when compensating someone.
My major problem with unions has always been that the protectionism and the collective bargaining they provide tends to "bully" companies into paying more in salaries, and also reduces the pool of candidate employees.
It is the same reason I don't like regulations on companies that tell them who they can, and can't employ (within legal reason), and where they can and can't manufacture their products.
If people are valuable, if people are skilled, if people seek a wage that is equitable given the market then they should be able to offer their skills and their services on the open market with confidence that they will get top dollar because they are valuable. If they need to band together, create a club of elite workers that close out competition, then that tells me that these people are NOT confident in their skills and their value.
That has always been my problem with unions. I've never met the really valuable person, confident in their skills and their employability WANT to be in one. They would rather run their own company or work for (and move up in) a company that recognizes their value and their individuality.
Now is where Caymen will give stories about non-union companies, and abuse. How "favorites" and "drinking buddies", etc get all the special treatment and all the promotions and raises. I won't try to say those things don't happen. They do. Likewise, there is a part of workinig for a company that, like it or not, comes down to social graces and social skills. Like it or not, but much of the business world IS a popularity contest. Those that don't like that probably should run their own business or move to a country where working in a back room and putting tops and bottoms still pays a living wage.
TJR
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Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
The USA had a good deal back in the golden age of manufacturing. Now it is all gone, and it won't ever come back like it once was. It is very sad, and it is a huge loss to our country. We need to find something else we are good at and can use to better our position in the world economy.
Alas, USA does not have the highest educated workforce anymore. Our education system has gone to ****- our high school students score at #26 in the world behind other nations on academics. Our country is ranked somewhere around 6th in the world as far as per capita higher degrees.
Things are bad and getting worse. Until we find a new technology, or figure out a way to control some product or service that is in high demand, we are gonna be screwed.
I am so glad I did not bring any children into this messed-up world. The future is not bright, and at best it is pretty bad.
Alas, USA does not have the highest educated workforce anymore. Our education system has gone to ****- our high school students score at #26 in the world behind other nations on academics. Our country is ranked somewhere around 6th in the world as far as per capita higher degrees.
Things are bad and getting worse. Until we find a new technology, or figure out a way to control some product or service that is in high demand, we are gonna be screwed.
I am so glad I did not bring any children into this messed-up world. The future is not bright, and at best it is pretty bad.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Gavin,
You get it.
Waxing nostalgically about the golden-age of manufacturing and wishing it would come back, or even more ill-advised, taking steps to bring it back won't really do anything for this country. That will fail.
Advancements in other countries have made them viable, more cost-effective providers of manufacturing. Wishing it were different, or trying to make that reality different is a losing battle. Let's assume that the living wage in China is 1/10th what it is here in the US. If that is accurate (and again, let's assume it is), that means that the #1 cost component of manufacturing, that being labor costs, can be reduced tremendously simply by offshoring manufacturing to China. It's simple math. Manufacturing has been moved to more cost-effective places on this globe for decades, and we Americans have enjoyed a relative lowering in the cost of durable goods (on average) decade after decade because of it.
You are right. Just like we once dominated in farming, then industry, now is the time to dominate in the next great thing.
You are also right in considering that educaton plays a part in the next great thing.
The next great thing is knowledge working. It's innovation. It's in becoming the country that invents, and leads, in knowledge and know-how.
There was a time when we were looked to for just these things. That time hasn't totally escaped us.
Don't despair. If you are one of those that doesn't want to be an engineer, or a scientist, or some other type of a knowledge worker, there will still be work for you in the service industry, in those manufacturing jobs that will remain (they will always be here, especially for niche, new products that aren't yet ready for offshoring), or in running your own business.
Frankly, I for one wouldn't want to work in a job that can be done by an unskilled, relatively uneducated person in an emerging country. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, always in fear for my job.
The future can be bright. It starts with parents. It starts with parents working with their children to teach them that their education is an investment, and like any investment it requires a return. You get out of life what you put into it. If you want to work little and live comfortably, with little higher education, you can do that, but you will have to understand and define exactly what "comfortable" means, and you might have to live in an area of the country where you can afford to live the way you want to live. That area of the country and that job you have to take might not fit exactly into your desires. Oh well. With higher education, more skills, willingness to take on more risks, and be more mobile, and less selective come more options.
Too many people, especially the last few generations (tail end of the baby boomers and since), want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a good job, that pays well, affords them all the things they ever wanted, without delays in their purchasing, and they want that from the age of 18 or 22 years old until they retire...and they want to retire at 58 or 62. Well, folks, that's all simply unrealistic...for most anyway.
When it comes to making money (and at a certain point that is a big deal...the main deal) it is about making yourself valuable, finding a valuable product or service you can work at a company to produce or as your own boss in deliver. For some, that requires higher education. For others, it does not. But regardless, it most often requires hard work (education, sweat equity, whatever), and it requires taking chances, and making compromises....and often requires delaying the things you want and think you need until the right time.
There was a time in this country when the American Car was a valued product with pretty high margins. That time is gone, at least for most cars. Now, for the average car, the margins are lower and the competition stiff. Assuming one can make the same relative living today that they did 30 or 40 years ago while working in the auto industry is simply unrealistic.
There is a reason we still use the term "gold rush" in business today. People make money during a gold rush. But there comes a time when the rush is over. The american auto industry had its gold rush. It lastest longer than most. It's over.
TJR
You get it.
Waxing nostalgically about the golden-age of manufacturing and wishing it would come back, or even more ill-advised, taking steps to bring it back won't really do anything for this country. That will fail.
Advancements in other countries have made them viable, more cost-effective providers of manufacturing. Wishing it were different, or trying to make that reality different is a losing battle. Let's assume that the living wage in China is 1/10th what it is here in the US. If that is accurate (and again, let's assume it is), that means that the #1 cost component of manufacturing, that being labor costs, can be reduced tremendously simply by offshoring manufacturing to China. It's simple math. Manufacturing has been moved to more cost-effective places on this globe for decades, and we Americans have enjoyed a relative lowering in the cost of durable goods (on average) decade after decade because of it.
You are right. Just like we once dominated in farming, then industry, now is the time to dominate in the next great thing.
You are also right in considering that educaton plays a part in the next great thing.
The next great thing is knowledge working. It's innovation. It's in becoming the country that invents, and leads, in knowledge and know-how.
There was a time when we were looked to for just these things. That time hasn't totally escaped us.
Don't despair. If you are one of those that doesn't want to be an engineer, or a scientist, or some other type of a knowledge worker, there will still be work for you in the service industry, in those manufacturing jobs that will remain (they will always be here, especially for niche, new products that aren't yet ready for offshoring), or in running your own business.
Frankly, I for one wouldn't want to work in a job that can be done by an unskilled, relatively uneducated person in an emerging country. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, always in fear for my job.
The future can be bright. It starts with parents. It starts with parents working with their children to teach them that their education is an investment, and like any investment it requires a return. You get out of life what you put into it. If you want to work little and live comfortably, with little higher education, you can do that, but you will have to understand and define exactly what "comfortable" means, and you might have to live in an area of the country where you can afford to live the way you want to live. That area of the country and that job you have to take might not fit exactly into your desires. Oh well. With higher education, more skills, willingness to take on more risks, and be more mobile, and less selective come more options.
Too many people, especially the last few generations (tail end of the baby boomers and since), want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a good job, that pays well, affords them all the things they ever wanted, without delays in their purchasing, and they want that from the age of 18 or 22 years old until they retire...and they want to retire at 58 or 62. Well, folks, that's all simply unrealistic...for most anyway.
When it comes to making money (and at a certain point that is a big deal...the main deal) it is about making yourself valuable, finding a valuable product or service you can work at a company to produce or as your own boss in deliver. For some, that requires higher education. For others, it does not. But regardless, it most often requires hard work (education, sweat equity, whatever), and it requires taking chances, and making compromises....and often requires delaying the things you want and think you need until the right time.
There was a time in this country when the American Car was a valued product with pretty high margins. That time is gone, at least for most cars. Now, for the average car, the margins are lower and the competition stiff. Assuming one can make the same relative living today that they did 30 or 40 years ago while working in the auto industry is simply unrealistic.
There is a reason we still use the term "gold rush" in business today. People make money during a gold rush. But there comes a time when the rush is over. The american auto industry had its gold rush. It lastest longer than most. It's over.
TJR
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James Kerr
Active Member
Or we continue down a path bringing us to where there are so many poor and desparate people that we can compete with China for labor.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Cluster,
That would be one way...but I wouldn't prefer that.
TJR
That would be one way...but I wouldn't prefer that.
TJR
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Lowest common denominator. Cluster has the plan figured out. When no one has anything, we will do anything for anyone.
I have very negative feelings for the future of this once-great country. They seem to be spot-on, too.
I have very negative feelings for the future of this once-great country. They seem to be spot-on, too.
gary s
Well-Known Member
gavin,
with people like tom running around with their blind beliefs, the end is near :bwahaha:
sorry, couldn't resist !!!! j/k tom :grin:
with people like tom running around with their blind beliefs, the end is near :bwahaha:
sorry, couldn't resist !!!! j/k tom :grin:
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I hope and pray the end is near.
