Health Care Bill Question

[Richard Polk]

So, they're saying that if you don't get insurance, they'll fine you.



Well, what if you're unemployed and living off of unemployment and you're barely able to pay your bills? Or you're working and still barely getting by?



Sounds like some communist BS to me.



I think I'll stop looking for a job and stay on unemployment just to see if they fine me. I'll start a class action against the government!

 

[Mark K 2]

You get low-cost subsidized or free coverage.

 

[Ed Fenwick]

Aloha,

I thought that the government option was off the table. What worries me is all the pork that is attached and we know nothing about what it will cost us.

Ed

 

[Bill Barber]

When Obamacare kicks in, we are all going to die:smile0008:

 

[TrainTrac]

You get low-cost subsidized or free coverage.

It is by no means free.:smile0008: It is subsidized, just not by choice--by those who are working/earning income. The gov't will seize property (earned income) by force from producers and give it to non-producers.:smile0003:

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."



Karl Marx

:smile0010:



John Stossel did a great piece on why gov't is actually to blame for high health care prices. Linked below

 

[Bill Barber]

I pay $1000.00 per mo, for insurance, thru blue cross, 10 K deductable, no vision, no dental, never had a claim, i need help, thats 12 grand per yr.

 

[Gavin Allan]

I pay $1000.00 per mo, for insurance, thru blue cross, 10 K deductable, no vision, no dental, never had a claim, i need help, thats 12 grand per yr.

That is because you are old and you live in Kalifornia.

 

[Bill Barber]

kali has nada to do with it 61 is not old my friend:smile0003:

 

[Kevin Palmer]

This is one of those times that being a Federal Employee is helpful.



I found that my Aetna Insurance I had was going from $143.00 a check (bi-weekly) to $236.00 a check..



Went to Blue Cross for $117.00 a check for the same coverage and includes some dental.



It kills me to see how much most are paying for coverage, pretty unfair.

 

[Andy Cabrera]

Actually what Barry O. said was:



What I think is appropriate is that in the same way that everybody has to get auto insurance and if you don't, you're subject to some penalty, that in this situation, if you have the ability to buy insurance, it's affordable and you choose not to do so, forcing you and me and everybody else to subsidize you, you know, there's a thousand dollar hidden tax that families all across America are -- are burdened by because of the fact that people don't have health insurance, you know, there's nothing wrong with a penalty.



Under the House bill those who can afford to buy insurance and dont pay a fine. If the refuse to pay that fine theres a threat as with a lot of tax fines of jail time. The Senate removed that provision in the Senate Finance Committee.



The big questions are:



1. defining "able to afford"!

2. Will the Feds remove the $1,000 hidden tax

 

[TrainTrac]

The whole auto insurance analogy was complete bullsh!t. The reason that states can require you to purchase auto insurance is that you're driving on public roads. If you don't drive on public roads, then you don't have to license or insure your vehicle.



Gov't requiring the purchase of health insurance under penalty of law (basically at gunpoint) is essentially requiring you to purchase someone else's property--in this case a service provided by an insurer.



This has never, ever happened before in the history of this Republic. No one has a right to another person's property.:smile0008:

 

[Bud Williams]

Train Trac....Too Late, it's been going on for the past 60 years...FDR lead us to Socialism, Obame is just making the trough bigger!:smile0010:



If we can't get him to show us his birth certificate in court, how will the courts handle this?!?



We are heading in uncharted waters without a paddle....to say it politely...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.



TJR

 

[TrainTrac]

Too Late, it's been going on for the past 60 years...FDR lead us to Socialism,

It started long before FDR. Don't forget the 16th & 17th amendments to the Constitution.:smile0003:

 

[Mark K 2]

Sit back, relax, and have a beer.

 

[Andy Cabrera]

The whole auto insurance analogy was complete bullsh!t. The reason that states can require you to purchase auto insurance is that you're driving on public roads. If you don't drive on public roads, then you don't have to license or insure your vehicle.

Absolutely true, but then using the same scenario states can require you to purchase health insurance since you will go to a public hospital.



Reviewing a hospital bill I saw a charge of $10 for 2 Tylenol. I asked WTF? I was told they do that to defer costs of uninsured patients.



Personally I think if you don't have insurance, you should be turned away from every medical facility unless you can pay up front!



Or if that's too cruel then have the option to euthanize you. :smile0015:

 

[Bill Barber]

two generic aspiren in my hospital, will be billed at 120 bux.

 

[TrainTrac]

Absolutely true, but then using the same scenario states can require you to purchase health insurance since you will go to a public hospital.

The key difference in your statement is the word states. I was referring to the Federal gov't requiring something that they're not Constitutionally allowed to do.



Just another example of the perversion of the Constitution's Interstate Commerce and general welfare clauses.



State laws are another matter entirely.



And as for your comment about "public" hospitals: I personally go to private, not public hospitals. And this is something else that gov't shouldn't be doing--public hospitals. Yet another contributing factor to high health insurance/care costs.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

TrainTrac said:

The whole auto insurance analogy was complete bullsh!t. The reason that states can require you to purchase auto insurance is that you're driving on public roads. If you don't drive on public roads, then you don't have to license or insure your vehicle.

Though I agree that the public road thing adds a dimension to the requirement for auto insurance I do think the analogy still holds.



I'm not defending ObamaCare, not in the least, but I think the auto industry analog DOES hold.



I'll explain why.





The reason we have auto insurance and forms of it are required is to protect others from the insured. In the case of liability insurance that is required in each and every state, that insurance is meant to compensate or cover the other guy when you do wrong. True, the so-called "no fault" states cloud this fact, but the basic fact remains. Regardless, there is the property owner (non-car) that is also protected by your liability insurance. Collission insurance is required if you have a lien on a vehicle as that protects the leinholder in case you do something to reduce the value of the vehicle.



Other types of auto insurance (ininsured motorist, comprehensive, and collission if not having a lein on your car) are typically optional as they protect YOU, not the other guy.



So, at it's core, required auto insurance is meant to protect and safeguard the property and the valueables of other people, and/or to compensate others when you do wrong.



If there were no insurance then there would simply be a much more complex dynamic at play with countless people taking each other to small claims court to seek damages, and to pay each other out-of-pocket. A pessismist would say that many, many people (the poor, the shiftless...not necessarily the same, not meant to be the same) would never pay damages in that type of arrangement. In that world, the responsible would pay for the ills of the irrresponsible.



Now, how does the mandatory purchase of healthcare equate to this? Well, one reason for forcing everyone to have healthcare is so that you protect others, their money and their fortunes from those that would otherwise not purchase insurance when they get sick. The irresponsible person without insurance can smoke, drink to the point they need a new liver, or eat themselves to death, and pass that irresponsible behavior and its costs on to the responsible people. Either everyone has insurance to help protect everyone, or no one is required and we all take our chances.



If everyone were responsible, and everyone were to pay their own way, we wouldn't need auto insurance NOR would we need mandatory health insurance. It is unlikely, though, behind the wheel of a car, or our life, that we act responsibily and our actions dont' affect the other guy...somehow.



TJR

 

[Bud Williams]

In Alabama you're not required to have auto insurance...at least it used to be that way. Anything can be fixed with Duct Tape..or as a friend of mine once said...Alabama Chrome!.:smile0015: