Is Arizona the nation's capital for hate, anger, rhetoric and vitriol?

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



No one said eliminate. No one even said censor. If you think it's all fine, that the level of incivility, rhetoric, ranting and raving is fine, then by all means, you are entitled to that opinion.



I think otherwise. We can do better.



I see the crosshairs and the "Don't retreat, ... reload!" mantra as simple pandering. I don't have a lot of respect for politicians that pander. Some would say that's just Sarah being Sarah, and that's fine. I'm not believing that anymore...there was a time. Now I just think she is yet another calculating politician, playing to her base. I'm sick and tired of such...



TJR

 

[H D]

Apparently Palin's accusers use the word crosshairs or target more than Palin uses surveyor's symbols. Good thing they are fixing that issue, phew.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

So, are we to believe that Sarah and/or her people really meant the symbol in question to be a survivor symbol and not a targeting/crosshair symbol? If so, that seems conveniently revisionist IMHO.



TJR

 

[H D]

Probably not. But I don't think its really an issue. Certainly no more than CNNs use of crosshairs.



I still blame the individual who calculated and killed. Period. I don't see this discussion moving forward. I'm done with it unless there are some posts that don't mention Palin's responsibility for killing a judge and severely injuring a congresswoman.



Next time I get a speeding ticket, I'm going to mention seeing a movie with a chase scene. Maybe I'll drink and drive and mention Ted Kennedy's stellar character and his impact on my life. This is a ridiculous argument.

 

[Les]

No one said eliminate. No one even said censor.

Yes they have, starting with CNN...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



Okay, fair enough.



I should have said: "No on here said..."



And more specifically, I guess I should have said: "I never said..."





Hugh,



Absurd analogies are fun and all, but most often they, like a "black and white" view of issues like this are a form of deflection and avoidance. If you all think that the level or rhetoric and vitriol is fine, and you think our political "leaders" are representing us well and doing a good job of working together for the betterment of this one fine country, well, then, I guess I've got nothing more to say.



But, if you DO NOT think that is the case, then I would hope you would agree with the fundamental sentiment here: That we can do better and should expect better.



So, I ask once again: Are you all happy with the level of uncivility within our government and in between our political parties and the fact that it is spilling over into main street (or vice-versa)? Don't you think we deserve better?



TJR

 

[Les]

Are you all happy with the level of uncivility within our government and in between our political parties and the fact that it is spilling over into main street (or vice-versa)?

It continues...

Tennessee Democrat Accuses Republicans of Nazi 'Big Lie' on Health Care

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



The mudslinging seems about equal from both sides, to me.



When do we as a country of voters DEMAND that or elected officials "take the high road", get past all this BS and start representing us?



I've been following the healthcare reform repeal.



Do most American's want the Obama version of healthcare reform? Nope. Do most Americans want some form of healthcare reform? Yep! The problem with this country and our system is that when two sides can't get along, and consistenly challenge the other rather than work together, what you get is really stupid programs and laws that either go overboard or are so watered down with concessions and pork that they miss the mark.



IMHO, it would have been better to simply increase the medicare ranks (who is eligible for medicare) than to go down the road of Obama's plan. Would have been less costly, or so it seems to me.



That, and an oversight committee lead by (ex?) doctors, not hospitals, and definately not insurance companies, tasked with cutting costs and streamling care would be another good start.



Whenever you have a BIG problem, the most oft way to make it worse is to try to come up with a BIG solution. Big problems more often than not require a more gradual, measured attack. Either that, or TRULY blow everything up and start over. As bad as our healthcare problem is (and it is pretty bad, but I submit mostly due to an entitlement attitude within America), it isn't that bad. Healthcare isn't an entitlement. Poor people get healthcare. No one is allowed to die on the street. Rich people get better healthcare. Don't like that, well then you better work harder to become richer. In America, that is still possible...last time I checked!



TJR

 

[Les]

When do we as a country of voters DEMAND that or elected officials "take the high road", get past all this BS and start representing us?

Demanding our elected officials act responsibility is only accomplished on election day, however, this only works if the voters are educated and care. Otherwise it's all rhetoric.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



But, 1/2 the country voted for change in the last presidential election and they were as educated as they could get. Did we get change? Change for the better? I don't think so, and I say that even though I voted for Obama...just couldn't vote for McCain/Palin, even though I am Republican.



I'm not even saying the current state of affairs is Obama's fault, or GWBs before him. Our problems are bigger than any one administration. They are bigger than the presidency.



Our problems, as I see it, is that almost all elected officials at almost all levels have forgotten what their job is...to represent and serve us, period; and not to placate their party, or to start their term by focusing on re-election.



We need to get back to a country run by the people, for the people. We have neither right now. The politicians that lead are the elite, and they don't understand nor seem to give two craps about us.



TJR

 

[Les]

But, 1/2 the country voted for change in the last presidential election and they were as educated as they could get.

Would disagree, Obama was elected by the least educated majority...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



What is your definition of "least educated majority?"



Are you talking about those that on average, have less education, in particular higher education?



Or are you talking about those that are educated on the issues, and about the candidate(s) to a lesser degree?



Or maybe you mean both?



I'll grant it that more lower-income, minorities voted for Obama than higher-income whites, and that the latter group has a higher education level, on average.



But I was talking about being educated on the issues and the candidates. I think people who voted either were educated, or at least educated about the candidates to the level they felt comfortable to make a decision. For many, the only education they needed about Obama was that he was "new", and "different", and would run things differently, and make true change for the better.



He hasn't done that.



TJR

 

[H D]

If you all think that the level or rhetoric and vitriol is fine, and you think our political "leaders" are representing us well and doing a good job of working together for the betterment of this one fine country, well, then, I guess I've got nothing more to say.



But, if you DO NOT think that is the case, then I would hope you would agree with the fundamental sentiment here: That we can do better and should expect better.



So, I ask once again: Are you all happy with the level of uncivility within our government and in between our political parties and the fact that it is spilling over into main street (or vice-versa)? Don't you think we deserve better?

I agree with you almost 100%. You should know by my posts by now, that I think our government is in absolute turmoil, stagnation, and corrupt. We shouldn't expect better when we don't DEMAND better, though. I don't think this shooting is symptomatic of political banter, though. If not murdering public figures, this guy was going to eventually act out his derangement.

I'm not even saying the current state of affairs is Obama's fault, or GWBs before him. Our problems are bigger than any one administration. They are bigger than the presidency.

Our current government doesn't want the people to realize this. They don't want us to know they are in way over their heads and prescribing solutions that only maximize government and personal power while throwing us catchphrases and rhetoric to fight with each other over. The two parties are working together better than most think. The size and scope of government power grows with each administration. Republicans focus on national security and appeal to a sense of safety. Democrats focus on social equity and promising handouts. The different approaches appeal to a different dumbed-down section of the population who refuse to engage in thinking about the true issues for themselves.

Our problems, as I see it, is that almost all elected officials at almost all levels have forgotten what their job is...to represent and serve us, period; and not to placate their party, or to start their term by focusing on re-election.

Because we don't demand better. The election of Obama was a waking up of many. I think they've been lulled back to a slumber, though and just go on pretending Obama is different and all the bickering in Washington is a result of his "CHANGE." BS, its business as usual and we bear the brunt of another gigantic social program we can't afford. Bush had his Patriot Act which was unconstitutional in every regard. Obama has his health care bill, which is unconstitutional in many aspects.



But go ahead, keep blaming the other guys. Keep voting straight tickets. Feel like your civic duty has been upheld by simply tapping a screen a couple times and walk out. They'll fix everything for you. It may require a few more of you dollars, or perhaps a few more concessions of your liberty, but you feel safe and fair, right?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Hugh,



Your last, sarcastic statement is pretty spot-on As I see it, the only way to fix the problem is to stop voting for democrats and republicans. They have both proven unable to do anything.



TJR

 

[Les]

What is your definition of "least educated majority?"

You got it right,

I'll grant it that more lower-income, minorities voted for Obama than higher-income whites

To say we were more informed voters, not really, just more BS...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



There seems to be a fine line for politicians between informing voters vs being lied to, mislead, and told what the voter(s) want to hear.



I miss Ross Perot. At least he told it like it was, even if it wouldn't get him elected. (or so it seems, I guess...who the heck really knows)

 

[TrainTrac]

At least he told it like it was, even if it wouldn't get him elected.

That didn't seem to hurt Jesse Ventura.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Train Trac,



Minnie-sodah ain't the rest of the country, I am afraid.



We need more JVs in public office...IMHO.



TJR

 

[TrainTrac]

Really?



Have you heard anything coming out of "The Body's" mouth lately? He's turned into a total conspiracy-theory whack-job. Even has/had a show on TruTV.

 

[H D]

Ron Paul