Judge blocks parts of Arizona immigration law

[Thomas Rogers]

In particular, the judge voiced her concern about the rights and liberties of legal residents required to show their papers under the proposed law:

Requiring Arizona law enforcement officials and agencies to determine the immigration status of every person who is arrested burdens lawfully-present aliens because their liberty will be restricted while their status is checked," Bolton, a Clinton appointee, said in her decision.

So, I guess the whole debate about the law infringing (or not) on people's rights and liberties now has new ammo.



Read more below:

 

[OLE442]

Well, let's see......when I came back into this country from Canada this past weekend, were my rights were infringed while it was determined whether I could re-enter my own freaking country (even though they had my US passport in their bureaucratic hands)?? They even asked of what country I was a citizen....look at the passport for a clue with a picture. This is BS...when I get stopped by a police officer, I have to produce my drivers license. Same when I deal with the BMV. Did I mention this is BS??



'07 ST:soap:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

'07 ST,



There is a difference between crossing a border, boarding a plane, or driving a car and simply walking around this great country of ours.



When you get stopped by a police officer and you are driving you have to provide your driver's license. That's not the same thing because driving is a privelege which has certain requirements (must have a license). If you get stopped by a police officer while walking down the street, unless there is some detainable reason for the stop, then you DO NOT have to show your papers, your license, etc.



There is a difference between the examples you gave, and what the law was set to require. It seems to me that the judge is able to recognize the difference, even if the lawmakers in Arizona (and many other in this country) cannot.



TJR

 

[Les]

What a croc, make legal residency a requirement for a drivers license. Anybody and everybody does ask for and use it for ID purposes. I have no problem providing it to the bank, a store for identification or a police officer. Don't give me a lot of crap about "individual freedoms" being violated. If a police officer is asking for my drivers license, I've probably done something wrong. And if a bank or store ask for ID, then I either comply, or move on. Either we can attempt to control illegal immigration legally, or the problem will escalate to the point people will start handling it themselves.

 

[Jimmy Lavoie]

What a croc, make legal residency a requirement for a drivers license. Anybody and everybody does ask for and use it for ID purposes. I have no problem providing it to the bank, a store for identification or a police officer. Don't give me a lot of crap about "individual freedoms" being violated. If a police officer is asking for my drivers license, I've probably done something wrong. And if a bank or store ask for ID, then I either comply, or move on. Either we can attempt to control illegal immigration legally, or the problem will escalate to the point people will start handling it themselves.

:soap: I couldn't agree more.



I don't think anyone is arguing that people not born in this country are not allowed here - just do it legally. My mom and dad did it (from Canada), my father in law did it (from Germany) and others do it all the time.



The true citizens of this country have become spoiled. The world is a different place then is was 10, 20, 30 and more years ago. We can't leave our doors unlocked anymore. There are scammers ALWAYS looking to get our money. There are thieves that want to take our things. There are illegal immigrants wanting to take our jobs (UNDERLINE ILLEGAL!) and NOT PAY TAXES.



For the most part - WE AMERICANS don't want to be inconvenienced. I agree with Les (and others) - SHOW YOUR ID at airports, police officers, events... TAKE OFF YOUR SHOES at Airports is asked - it's for our safety. JEESH! :btddhorse:



Quit your bitchen and do the right thing for this country and take a little extra time if it will make us all safer. Illegal immigrants - BECOME LEGAL by doing the right thing. Pay your taxes like all us Americans.



Bottom line -

1. There are bad people wanting to do bad things to us - all the time.

2. If you want to live in this country, do it legally.



Period :btddhorse:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les, Justjimmy...



A croc?



I think not.



I too agree that people should be here legally and we should have laws and agencies that help to assure that. I recognize that showing ID in other circumstances seems the same as what is being suggested in Arizona; but clearly those other instances are not the same.



Those things to me are not the bigger issue. Those are the "shiney things" that easily distract some people from the more major issue.



The major issue to me is that there are people that are willing to give up liberties in exchange for safety and security. I'm just not one of them. Furthermore, I think I'm in pretty good company, too.



Ben Franklin said: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."



TJR

 

[OLE442]

I work with a Ukranian man and wife who came here and became U.S. citizens LEGALLY. They are two of my favorite people. I ask their opinion and viewpoints because of their lifelong experiences in the former U.S.S.R.. I value their knowledge and am suprised that 90% of the time their concerns about this country mirror mine. I have also known/worked with many Vietnamese, English, Nigerian, German and Philipino naturalized citizens in the past and have enjoyed their viewpoints. I don't have anything against legal immigration.



'07 ST

 

[Thomas Rogers]

'07 ST,



No one said you had anything against legal immigration. Neither do I. Nor do I support illegal immigration.



I simply don't support eroding the liberties of citizens and legal residents in a hope that we might be able to catch more illegals.



That doesn't sound like the America I want to live in.



How about we simply start fining the (small) companies that hire the illegals? That would solve the problem quicker than actions like the proposed Arizona law. Can anyone answer me that question?



TJR

 

[OLE442]

Yes, but how would one establish that the hired workers are illegals? Can't check and if they happen to have manufactured paperwork then it would appear you were harassing legal workers if you did. It appears to be a Catch 22 to me......

 

[Nick Miller]

Radio-frequency identification (RFID)

 

[Les]

I simply don't support eroding the liberties of citizens and legal residents in a hope that we might be able to catch more illegals

TJR, you are eroding nothing. As I said, we all carry a driver's license and present it to just about anyone that ask. If I'm asked for it and it is an appropriate request, I will comply, if not, I won't.

How about we simply start fining the (small) companies that hire the illegals? That would solve the problem quicker than actions like the proposed Arizona law. Can anyone answer me that question?

Geez, why didn't someone think of this. These laws have been in place for years and obviously they are not being enforced. Sanctuary cities, including San Francisco, are allowed to blantanly defy the law, and NO federal intervention.



The "actions like the proposed Arizona law" is what is needed. The federal government has shown more interest in illegal immigration since the Arizona law was signed, than it has at any other time. Also, they have put forth more effort to stop the law, than enforce their own laws.



TJR, since you don't like the Arizona law, what is your solution?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



Let me be very clear. This Arizona law is poised to erode liberties.



Today, in this country, when LEOs stop someone and ask them to show their papers (ID, proof of residence) the person stopped is required to comply only if the stop is for a detainable offense. The reason the judge is blocking parts of the law is that it seems to violate that longstanding interpretation and application of laws and statutes surrounding right to privacy and "stop and detain."



So, the judge, who I suspect knows such laws, statutes and their common application pretty well, believes the Arizona bill to be an erosion. I suspect she is right.



I don't like the Arizona law because I fundamentally object to it because of the erosion of liberties it could generate, and that I fundamentally do not think that adding more laws on top of ineffective or unenforced laws already in place to solve the problem is the answer.



We already have laws that make it illegal to hire illegals. ENFORCE THEM. In this tough economy we simply need a new "whistleblower" program, wherein people that turn in those that hire illegals get a bounty/reward. That would give us teeth to enforce the current laws; fine the CRAP out of those companies and business owners that break the laws (a disincentive for them to hire illegals, so they will stop the practice), and take the fines levied to pay for the bounty/rewards given to the whistleblowers and pay for the govt employees and agencies that must staff and run the whistleblower program.



It's rather straightforward to me. The current laws aren't enforced because either they are hard to enforce, or we simply don't want to enforce them...or a combination of both. Let's assume we DO want to enforce them. Give them teeth via a whistleblower program...problem solved.



TJR

 

[Les]

Let me be very clear. This Arizona law is poised to erode liberties.

TJR,

The only liberties I see being eroded by not enforcing or instituting new laws (such as the Arizona law), are those of the American people. I don't care if an illegal has no liberties, they haven't earned them.

Let's assume we DO want to enforce them.

Arizona, Florida and other states do want to enforce them, but our current administration is more concerned about other's rights and their political agenda than its own citizens.



Now that Arizona has displayed some balls, I hear people like you crying "my liberties will be eroded". I'll bet if you lived in Arizona, you would feel differently. You will be giving up nothing, so why wouldn't you want the laws enforced any way possible. I'm sure if the police weren't patrolling your neighborhood, you would find a way to do it yourself. That's what Arizona is trying to do.

 

[Jacob Dryer]

I'm curious how whistle blowing enforcement would work.



I run a business and you think I hire illegals so you tell immigration and they come checkout my business and require that all employees show they are legally working how? ID? Tax forms?



What I'm getting at is it's seems to me that it just moves where/when these rights are violated.. unless I'm not understanding how the process works or would/should work. Which is very possible as I have no experience with any of it..

 

[David Clary]

Jeeze, have you read the law? Or should I say read and understood the law.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



As for feeling differently if I lived in Arizona. I don't think I would. I'd feel the same, and I'd fight to get the laws already on the books enforced, and to hold accountable those that break them. That's where the problem lies. Solve that problem.







JDBoxes,



As a small business owner myself, I already have to keep records of employees and if asked for whatever reason by the IRS or some other state or local authority for that matter I have to produce records, social security numbers, etc. Whistleblowing wouldn't change those obligations.



We as citizens and legal residents are not obligated to identify ourselves or show papers under most all circumstances of our daily walk of life, only when doing priveleged things (driving, traveling, border crossings, etc).







Ity,



I read the law, as did the Judge (or so I assume). Clearly she thinks it could be abused and infringe on the liberties of those here legally. I shared that same concern months ago.







All,



The reality here, folks, is that our country, it's citizens, and its government (state, local, and federal) have by and large turned a relative blind-eye to the issue of illegals because doing anything else would kill the "little guy" that employs them.



That's the simple fact of it as I see it.



So, if you don't like illegals in your town, then make life difficult for your friends and neighbors that hire them. Don't do business with those people or buy their products or services. Pay more for the good or service from a competitor that doesn't hire illegals. Do those things and the problem goes away. Most people aren't willing to do these things, THUS the problem persists.





TJR

 

[Jimmy Lavoie]

Most people aren't willing to do these things, THUS the problem persists.

My point exactly :

...WE AMERICANS don't want to be inconvenienced...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Justjimmy,



I'm all for being inconvenienced and to sacrifice to address a societal problem,...right up to the point that one of my liberties or rights gets infringed, THEN I start to take offense.



For example, I have no issue with stopping for a sobriety check on a highway. That inconveniences me.



However, I don't want to be stopped while walking down the street and asked to show my papers when I have done nothing wrong.



The difference between the two is that driving is a priveledge that carries requirements; simply living (walking down the street, sitting in a park, etc) does not. That's the difference. There aren't precedents out there of people minding their own business and being asked to produce papers. The judge believes that the Arizona law might be used to infringe on people's liberties in such a manner. I tend to agree.



This isn't about driving. This isn't about crossing borders. It isn't about air travel. The situation that the judge is no doubt trying to avoid is people being detained and questioned for no other reason than WAWB...walking around while brown.



Sure, the law and proponents state that it will only be enforced when stopped for some other offense. Well, I can tell you from personal experience that LEOs can, and do fabricate reasons to stop people. It's happened to me, and I'm white. My offense: Driving just after closing time. The reason for the stop: Was told I drove over the center line. The fact: I did not; but it was an excuse to see if I had been drinking, and to run my ID/plates.



I don't want to give cops yet another reason to troll for offenses and in the trolling stop and detain innocent people in the process. Do you?



TJR

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

You simply do not understand the magnitude of the illegal alien problem. Going after the companies that hire illegals sounds good until you realize that the small companies have no way of knowing if the green cards the works posess belong to them or their cousins, or if the card itself is forged. One local client I did some work for was raided by the INS for having illegal alien workers. The all had forged documents and when the owner asked how he could identify a forged green card, he was told "That information could not be revealed" ??? Of course they did not take any action against him because he had copies of all the workers documentation, but they were still illegal aliens using forged documents.



I think it's too easy for you to sit back in your chair, 1500 miles away and be concerned that a US citizens rights may be violated because he might be asked to documentation to prove he is a citizen of the USA. The problem is that the vast majority of the citizens in Arizona and other border states approve of the Arizona's law and do not object to proving they are citizens. The only people who are objecting to the Arizona law are the illegal aliens, family members of the illegal aliens, and liberals in general.



Obama is just lining up votors for the next Presidential election. And it is not over yet... I think Arizona will prevail. The only real argument the Feds have put forth is that too many illegal alien arrest will overload the system...Wow when has too much crime been the excuse to have the police back off ??? There is even rumors that Arizona may start making arrests based on the Federal immigration laws wnich would still overload the system. I can't wait to see what they do then.



...Rich

 

[LaRue Medlin]

We just had an incident on base here a few weeks ago. 10 "illegals" were signing onto base to work for a construction company. Everthing was cool and they all has "legal" passes and ID. That is untill one of the SP's at the sign-in office noticed the approving authority on the passes,,, transfered over a year ago.... Anything these days can be "faked" id's , dl's , green cards... It's just like the war on terrorism,,, get rid of 1 (100) "bad" guy,,, there is 10,000 waiting to take his place. There will never be a way to control this..... and racial profiling is always going to exist.