Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
Really? You think I'm sitting in my chair and that I don't understand because I don't live in Arizona?
Really? South Florida man - think about it.
:rofl:
Judge blocks parts of Arizona immigration law
- Thread starter Thomas Rogers
- Start date
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Really? You think I'm sitting in my chair and that I don't understand because I don't live in Arizona?
Really? South Florida man - think about it.
:rofl:
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Richard L said:
Sorry, Rich, but I tend to turn people off when they insult me and my intelligence by presume to tell me what I do or don't understand. That's another of my pet peeves, and not a way to start a civil conversation. You have no idea how or if the illegal problem has affected me, and what I know or don't know about it.
The vast majority of people living in Southern states approved of segregation prior to the 50's, but that didn't make it right. So, your point?
[/quote]The only people who are objecting to the Arizona law are the illegal aliens, family members of the illegal aliens, and liberals in general.[/quote]
The only ones, huh? I kind of doubt that. Case-in-point: I do not fall into any of those categories. I am not a liberal. I'm liberal about some things, I guess, like liberties. Conservative about other things, I guess, like a small government, and fewer laws, not more. When you label people it rarely goes well.
P.S. If forged documentation is an issue for employers that are trying to comply, won't that same issue befall local LOEs that stop illegals and ask for documentation? Think about it. If you say that local LEOs can be trained to detect forgeries and various systems can be updated to detect and weed out forgeries, than the same training, abilities and updates could be supplied to the employers, which arguably are the source of the issue and could detect the problem before illegals become employed. If they aren't employed, they don't stay. That's a better solution than HOPING local LEO can find the people IF and WHEN they do something to arise suspicion or give cause for a stop.
Put simple, the law is pretty much half baked. Enforce the existing laws and give them teeth. More laws on top of laws that already aren't working rarely fixes a root cause.
TJR
Sorry, Rich, but I tend to turn people off when they insult me and my intelligence by presume to tell me what I do or don't understand. That's another of my pet peeves, and not a way to start a civil conversation. You have no idea how or if the illegal problem has affected me, and what I know or don't know about it.
The vast majority of people living in Southern states approved of segregation prior to the 50's, but that didn't make it right. So, your point?
[/quote]The only people who are objecting to the Arizona law are the illegal aliens, family members of the illegal aliens, and liberals in general.[/quote]
The only ones, huh? I kind of doubt that. Case-in-point: I do not fall into any of those categories. I am not a liberal. I'm liberal about some things, I guess, like liberties. Conservative about other things, I guess, like a small government, and fewer laws, not more. When you label people it rarely goes well.
P.S. If forged documentation is an issue for employers that are trying to comply, won't that same issue befall local LOEs that stop illegals and ask for documentation? Think about it. If you say that local LEOs can be trained to detect forgeries and various systems can be updated to detect and weed out forgeries, than the same training, abilities and updates could be supplied to the employers, which arguably are the source of the issue and could detect the problem before illegals become employed. If they aren't employed, they don't stay. That's a better solution than HOPING local LEO can find the people IF and WHEN they do something to arise suspicion or give cause for a stop.
Put simple, the law is pretty much half baked. Enforce the existing laws and give them teeth. More laws on top of laws that already aren't working rarely fixes a root cause.
TJR
Dave King 2
Active Member
Didnt you hear? There are no longer any illegal aliens in the U.S. The new political correct term that most of the media is using now is { undocumented workers }. If they can just get that nasty illegal thing out of our heads the problem will go away. They will just have to get some documentation for these poor workers so they can continue to collect benefits from a country they dont belong to. So the sooner you start thinking of them as only undocumented and not illegal the sooner the problem will go away. The main push is to get them documented before the next election so they can all vote. My personal choice is land mines all along the border. :fire: :fire:
Bud Williams
Well-Known Member
I propose we build about twenty nuke plants on the border to enhance our aging power grid.
We don't have Yucca mountain thanks to Obama, so we catch an illegal, give him a shovel and have him start digging a trench, about 20 wide by 10 deep. We take our nuke waste and put it in the trench. No fence to scale, just one big 2000 mile nuke wastewater river.
We put sheriff Joe in charge of the prisoners, feed them bologna sandwiches, pink underwear and live in tents. If they don't eat the bologna, we can assume they are Muslim terrorists trying to sneak into the country from Mexico. With 20 million illegals, In about 6 months, they should be done. Problem solved....:bwahaha:
We don't have Yucca mountain thanks to Obama, so we catch an illegal, give him a shovel and have him start digging a trench, about 20 wide by 10 deep. We take our nuke waste and put it in the trench. No fence to scale, just one big 2000 mile nuke wastewater river.
We put sheriff Joe in charge of the prisoners, feed them bologna sandwiches, pink underwear and live in tents. If they don't eat the bologna, we can assume they are Muslim terrorists trying to sneak into the country from Mexico. With 20 million illegals, In about 6 months, they should be done. Problem solved....:bwahaha:
Mike Dziubina
Well-Known Member
I wish we had that smiley face that is eating popcorn
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Yes there are. Just not in this country.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V,
Yeah, I should have been more specific. I was talking about within this country.
"This isn't Russia, is it Danny?"
TJR
Yeah, I should have been more specific. I was talking about within this country.
"This isn't Russia, is it Danny?"
TJR
EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
While this is debated. This is what we in the south have to deal with. Something has to be done, NOW!
Bud Williams
Well-Known Member
:fire::fire::fire::btddhorse:
LoriMaury Kimbrough
Active Member
Les...several years ago AZ passed a law requiring you to show proof of residency in order to get an AZ drivers licenses or ID card. The same law required proof of residency to get state medi-cade, state financial aid for school and welfare. That being said our drivers licenses don't expire until you turn 65, yes, mine expires in 2032. If you got your licenses prior to that law going into effect, you're good.
Living in AZ, I deal with this every day. Our state is in the top 4 of states near bankruptcy, partially because of illegal immigration.
It doesn't really surprise me that the judge did what she did. I can only hope that it will over-turned on appeal. Somebody's got to do something since it doesn't look like the feds want to. The folks that I know who are in this country legally (and yes I know more than 1) get really pissed at those who think they can skirt the laws and expect to have some rights. They couldn't wait for the new law to go into effect just so that they could show their papers. They are proud of themselves for doing it legally. They are all for sending their butts back to where they came from.
Come to this Country and follow the laws and I'll welcome you with open arms. However, that starts by coming into the Country legally. It just seems simple to me.
I would expect to have to prove that I'm in another Country legally if I was visiting. But then I tend to be one of those people that follow the rules.....
Living in AZ, I deal with this every day. Our state is in the top 4 of states near bankruptcy, partially because of illegal immigration.
It doesn't really surprise me that the judge did what she did. I can only hope that it will over-turned on appeal. Somebody's got to do something since it doesn't look like the feds want to. The folks that I know who are in this country legally (and yes I know more than 1) get really pissed at those who think they can skirt the laws and expect to have some rights. They couldn't wait for the new law to go into effect just so that they could show their papers. They are proud of themselves for doing it legally. They are all for sending their butts back to where they came from.
Come to this Country and follow the laws and I'll welcome you with open arms. However, that starts by coming into the Country legally. It just seems simple to me.
I would expect to have to prove that I'm in another Country legally if I was visiting. But then I tend to be one of those people that follow the rules.....
TJR,
First let's get one thing straight. Don't tell me I am insulting your intelligence...you simply don't no the magnitude of the problem and you cannot know unless you lived here
My intent was not to insult you, but it you feel insulted it's all in your head. The fact that you live in small town, PA and have no earthly idea what the people who live in these southwestern border states are dealing with. I'm sure there are some illegal aliens in your state, but you have no idea how big the problem is down here.
I have nothing against the Mexican people and I am all for some sort of amnesty program for the estimated 12 million illegals who are already here and entered the country illegally. That is so we can get an accurate accounting of how many there are and where they live. That will allow the states to show that these people are here and we need more financial assistance from the Federal government to help with such a large group of indigent who are tasking the charity and welfare systems in these states.
As for forged documents. Any document can be forged if the forger is determined to make a forgery. The government can take measures to it far more difficult to make forgeries of immigration documents. We don't seem to have a major forgery problem with our passports. The INS knows how to determine if immegration documents are forged, and perhaps the police do as well. If the INS made the documents harder to forge, or clued in the rest of law enforcement and even employers, on how to identify forged documents, they might be able to catch some of these people. Oh but I forgot...That might overload the Federal system?? Well I'm sorry, but the southwestern states are already overloaded and their systems have been overloaded for years because the Federal government has not done it's job and now the situation is way out of hand and the Feds claim that too many arrests would overload the system. I sure hope they don't take that same attitude with terrorists.
You never offered any solution to this problem and yet you critize everybody who favors this law. Your only suggestion was to prosecute the businesses who employ the illegal aliens....Why? In most cases they are the victims of lies and forged documents. You might be suprized to learn that most employers use a verification system for insuring that American citizens are who they say they are and that they are using their own Social Security Number, even before you get hired for a job. We can't do that with green card aliens. We can only assume that if they have the green card, they must be OK to work here. The fact that everyone in that family may have a copy of that same green card and we can't tell which one is real or which are forgeries is a failure of the Federal INS system. And as an American, I find that Insulting !!
...Richard
First let's get one thing straight. Don't tell me I am insulting your intelligence...you simply don't no the magnitude of the problem and you cannot know unless you lived here
My intent was not to insult you, but it you feel insulted it's all in your head. The fact that you live in small town, PA and have no earthly idea what the people who live in these southwestern border states are dealing with. I'm sure there are some illegal aliens in your state, but you have no idea how big the problem is down here.
I have nothing against the Mexican people and I am all for some sort of amnesty program for the estimated 12 million illegals who are already here and entered the country illegally. That is so we can get an accurate accounting of how many there are and where they live. That will allow the states to show that these people are here and we need more financial assistance from the Federal government to help with such a large group of indigent who are tasking the charity and welfare systems in these states.
As for forged documents. Any document can be forged if the forger is determined to make a forgery. The government can take measures to it far more difficult to make forgeries of immigration documents. We don't seem to have a major forgery problem with our passports. The INS knows how to determine if immegration documents are forged, and perhaps the police do as well. If the INS made the documents harder to forge, or clued in the rest of law enforcement and even employers, on how to identify forged documents, they might be able to catch some of these people. Oh but I forgot...That might overload the Federal system?? Well I'm sorry, but the southwestern states are already overloaded and their systems have been overloaded for years because the Federal government has not done it's job and now the situation is way out of hand and the Feds claim that too many arrests would overload the system. I sure hope they don't take that same attitude with terrorists.
You never offered any solution to this problem and yet you critize everybody who favors this law. Your only suggestion was to prosecute the businesses who employ the illegal aliens....Why? In most cases they are the victims of lies and forged documents. You might be suprized to learn that most employers use a verification system for insuring that American citizens are who they say they are and that they are using their own Social Security Number, even before you get hired for a job. We can't do that with green card aliens. We can only assume that if they have the green card, they must be OK to work here. The fact that everyone in that family may have a copy of that same green card and we can't tell which one is real or which are forgeries is a failure of the Federal INS system. And as an American, I find that Insulting !!
...Richard
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
RichardL said:
Thanks, but I will tell you that you are insulting my intelligence. I get to decide how to take what you say to me....not you. Thanks. And, yes, I can KNOW the magnitude of a problem without actually living there. The difference is that I can KNOW the magnitude of the problem, YET because I don't live there can form an opinion on how to SOLVE the problem without my personal bias and emotion playing a part. That to me makes my viewpoints on these matters quite meaningful.
Richard L said:
So, which is it? Did I never offer a solution, or did I have only one suggestion?
I had several suggestions for solutions. I also suggested why solutions to-date haven't solved anything, and why others like them probably won't either.
The first solution I offered is to actually enforce the current laws. I absolutely do not think that most of the people hiring illegals in this country do so by being duped with forged documents. Rather, I am pretty sure must do so willingling and knowingly.
I'll stand behind my other assertion, call it a suggestion or a reason there is no solution, call it whatever you want. That assertion is that there are illegals in this country, by and large, because the "right" people want them to be here. Those people that want them here are the ones that employ them (most knowingly), and those that enjoy the cheaper goods and services that they provide.
That is the problem.
Let he who has never hired a contractor or a landscaper that hires illegals, or he that has never bought fruit from a roadside stand that has its produce picked by illegals, or he that has bought a house that was build in part by illegals throw the first stone.
TJR
Thanks, but I will tell you that you are insulting my intelligence. I get to decide how to take what you say to me....not you. Thanks. And, yes, I can KNOW the magnitude of a problem without actually living there. The difference is that I can KNOW the magnitude of the problem, YET because I don't live there can form an opinion on how to SOLVE the problem without my personal bias and emotion playing a part. That to me makes my viewpoints on these matters quite meaningful.
Richard L said:
So, which is it? Did I never offer a solution, or did I have only one suggestion?
I had several suggestions for solutions. I also suggested why solutions to-date haven't solved anything, and why others like them probably won't either.
The first solution I offered is to actually enforce the current laws. I absolutely do not think that most of the people hiring illegals in this country do so by being duped with forged documents. Rather, I am pretty sure must do so willingling and knowingly.
I'll stand behind my other assertion, call it a suggestion or a reason there is no solution, call it whatever you want. That assertion is that there are illegals in this country, by and large, because the "right" people want them to be here. Those people that want them here are the ones that employ them (most knowingly), and those that enjoy the cheaper goods and services that they provide.
That is the problem.
Let he who has never hired a contractor or a landscaper that hires illegals, or he that has never bought fruit from a roadside stand that has its produce picked by illegals, or he that has bought a house that was build in part by illegals throw the first stone.
TJR
TLR.
Well then, I guess you will just have to feel insulted, because nearly everything you have said on this subject shows that you do not have the slightest concept of what the reality or magnitude of this problem is.
How dare you profess to know more about the illegal immigration problem than someone who has lived in Texas for over 27 years
I feel insulted that you live in Pennsylvania, have no earthly idea of the immigration situation here in the Southwest, and equate the popularity of the Arizona law to slavery in the US prior to the Civil War. Almost every time you post on this subject, you interject the race card. This is not a racial issue, it is a financial issue, but the illegal aliens and liberals always want to portray immigration reform law as a racial issue.
Illegal immigrants are draining the money from all of the southwestern Border States and we taxpayer (not you in PA) are paying for it. The states cannot control the illegal immigrations, and the Federal Government is not doing much to stop it and wont compensate the states because the states cannot document how many illegal aliens exist in their state. While there are illegal aliens living in all 50 states, the problem is far more concentrated in the Mexican Border States.
Maybe we can pass a law to have the residents of PA pay a larger share of their taxes to help out Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California to deal with this immigration problem. Lets call it Immigration Equality Taxes.. That way the residents of all non-border states pay the 4 Mexican Border States for all their illegal immigrant expenses.
Until that happens, I dont care to hear what you have to say about the illegal immigrants issue in this part of the country because you are way out of your area of expertise and that is insulting to me and others who live in the Border States.
Richard
Well then, I guess you will just have to feel insulted, because nearly everything you have said on this subject shows that you do not have the slightest concept of what the reality or magnitude of this problem is.
How dare you profess to know more about the illegal immigration problem than someone who has lived in Texas for over 27 years
I feel insulted that you live in Pennsylvania, have no earthly idea of the immigration situation here in the Southwest, and equate the popularity of the Arizona law to slavery in the US prior to the Civil War. Almost every time you post on this subject, you interject the race card. This is not a racial issue, it is a financial issue, but the illegal aliens and liberals always want to portray immigration reform law as a racial issue.
Illegal immigrants are draining the money from all of the southwestern Border States and we taxpayer (not you in PA) are paying for it. The states cannot control the illegal immigrations, and the Federal Government is not doing much to stop it and wont compensate the states because the states cannot document how many illegal aliens exist in their state. While there are illegal aliens living in all 50 states, the problem is far more concentrated in the Mexican Border States.
Maybe we can pass a law to have the residents of PA pay a larger share of their taxes to help out Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California to deal with this immigration problem. Lets call it Immigration Equality Taxes.. That way the residents of all non-border states pay the 4 Mexican Border States for all their illegal immigrant expenses.
Until that happens, I dont care to hear what you have to say about the illegal immigrants issue in this part of the country because you are way out of your area of expertise and that is insulting to me and others who live in the Border States.
Richard
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Richard L,
I never said that I know more about the illegal immigration problem in the Southwest than an unnamed person who has lived in Texas for over 27 years. I never even meant to imply it, and I clearly never said it.
You too can feel insulted by whatever you want, but please recognize thtat I didn't interject the race card. I simply pointed out an example of where using the excuse "but this is what the majority wants" doesn't necessarily make something right. The majority of children in my house want to eat ice cream for three meals a day...but that wouldn't be wise.
Richard L also said:
Then maybe you should simply not listen. We all have a stake in what goes on in Arizona. You may think I don't have as much skin in the game as others (and I don't), but that doesn't make my opinion on the potential civil liberty issues of the law any less valid than anyone elses...and, as I said, they may be MORE valid because I AM detracted from the situation.
Clearly you are too emotional to discuss this. Possibly because the illegal issue has affected you and/or yours personally. That's my main point about the whole thing, and I will close with that below...
Most of the people of Arizona like the law, because it hopefully will deal with a painful, costly, harmful situation they have. In other words, the people of Arizona are the victims of illegal immigration, and they want justice.
Consider this though, and in closing; in this country, as victims seek justice, we don't let the victims sit on the jury when convicting those that have wronged them. There is a reason for this. First, and foremost, the reason is that the victims cannot remove their emotions from the facts of the law and the case at hand.
For that same reason, I think the people of Arizona that support this law, as the victims, are too close the situation to be able to step back and recognize that though the law may help their situation, they aren't necessarily clearly considering at what cost.
Put simply, I suspect this will all go to the US Supreme Court, which will likely be the equivalent of a "change of venue", which is commonplace in the US courts when the jury pool of a certain area is tainted, or otherwise cannot consider the facts of the case and divorce those facts from the hype, emotion, rhetoric, etc.
TJR
I never said that I know more about the illegal immigration problem in the Southwest than an unnamed person who has lived in Texas for over 27 years. I never even meant to imply it, and I clearly never said it.
You too can feel insulted by whatever you want, but please recognize thtat I didn't interject the race card. I simply pointed out an example of where using the excuse "but this is what the majority wants" doesn't necessarily make something right. The majority of children in my house want to eat ice cream for three meals a day...but that wouldn't be wise.
Richard L also said:
Then maybe you should simply not listen. We all have a stake in what goes on in Arizona. You may think I don't have as much skin in the game as others (and I don't), but that doesn't make my opinion on the potential civil liberty issues of the law any less valid than anyone elses...and, as I said, they may be MORE valid because I AM detracted from the situation.
Clearly you are too emotional to discuss this. Possibly because the illegal issue has affected you and/or yours personally. That's my main point about the whole thing, and I will close with that below...
Most of the people of Arizona like the law, because it hopefully will deal with a painful, costly, harmful situation they have. In other words, the people of Arizona are the victims of illegal immigration, and they want justice.
Consider this though, and in closing; in this country, as victims seek justice, we don't let the victims sit on the jury when convicting those that have wronged them. There is a reason for this. First, and foremost, the reason is that the victims cannot remove their emotions from the facts of the law and the case at hand.
For that same reason, I think the people of Arizona that support this law, as the victims, are too close the situation to be able to step back and recognize that though the law may help their situation, they aren't necessarily clearly considering at what cost.
Put simply, I suspect this will all go to the US Supreme Court, which will likely be the equivalent of a "change of venue", which is commonplace in the US courts when the jury pool of a certain area is tainted, or otherwise cannot consider the facts of the case and divorce those facts from the hype, emotion, rhetoric, etc.
TJR
Les
Well-Known Member
Then why do the majority of Americans favor this law? Not just those that live in the border states, but across the country.
Most of the "hype, emotion, rhetoric, etc." is coming from the current do-nothing administration as a ploy to sway Hispanic votes.
TJR,
Sorry if I came on so strongly and if you felt I was insulting you. That truly was not my intention. I am upset that this immigration issue has become a political football. Nobody in Washington is really addressing the issue except Arizona and then Washington tries to stop them, and too many people want to play the race card when the cards have not even been dealt yet!
It is not racial and it is not anybodys hatred of Mexican people. It is strictly about the heavy financial burden being placed on the Border States by the shear number of illegal aliens crossing the border from Mexico and settling in these border states.
I said it earlier in another thread regarding the illegal alien problem, particularly in the border states, but I think it should be repeated.
First we should first seal our borders to make far more difficult for more illegal entries. And step up the enforcement of the illegal immigration laws by allowing states to make arrest or ask for proper ID of anyone they suspect is not in this country legally. Surely the states and the Federal government can agree on a legal and proper protocol for law enforcement to use.
Then we need to deal with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants already in the country. Simply arresting them would be an impossible task. So I proposed that we should start an amnesty program where illegal can turn him/her self in to the INS and apply for Amnesty.
The existing illegal immigrants must apply by a specific date or they will lose all rights under this limited amnesty program. If they apply for the amnesty program, They must plead guilty in court to entering the USA illegally and will be given a 5 year probated sentence and allowed to remain in this country for the 5 year probationary period if they comply with the following requirements.
1. They are not wanted for any crimes in the US or elsewhere. If they are found to be wanted or convicted of a previous crime, they have voided their application for amnesty and will be deported as soon as those cases are settled.
2.They willingly provide fingerprints and DNA samples for future positive identification.
3.They are not arrested for any crimes during the probationary period (similar to parole violations)
4.They must report any change in address or employment during the probationary period.
5.They must report quarterly to verify their ID, address and employment status
6.They must pay taxes and Social Security on any earnings they make in the United States. Social Security will be in their name and count towards their retirement if they become citizens. If they choose not to become US citizens the money paid to social security will be forfeited.
7.At the end of the 5 year probationary period, they can choose to apply for US citizenship, a US work visa or return to their home county. If they have complied with all of the above conditions, their initial conviction for entering the country will be expunged and their record will be wiped clean.
...Richard
Sorry if I came on so strongly and if you felt I was insulting you. That truly was not my intention. I am upset that this immigration issue has become a political football. Nobody in Washington is really addressing the issue except Arizona and then Washington tries to stop them, and too many people want to play the race card when the cards have not even been dealt yet!
It is not racial and it is not anybodys hatred of Mexican people. It is strictly about the heavy financial burden being placed on the Border States by the shear number of illegal aliens crossing the border from Mexico and settling in these border states.
I said it earlier in another thread regarding the illegal alien problem, particularly in the border states, but I think it should be repeated.
First we should first seal our borders to make far more difficult for more illegal entries. And step up the enforcement of the illegal immigration laws by allowing states to make arrest or ask for proper ID of anyone they suspect is not in this country legally. Surely the states and the Federal government can agree on a legal and proper protocol for law enforcement to use.
Then we need to deal with the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants already in the country. Simply arresting them would be an impossible task. So I proposed that we should start an amnesty program where illegal can turn him/her self in to the INS and apply for Amnesty.
The existing illegal immigrants must apply by a specific date or they will lose all rights under this limited amnesty program. If they apply for the amnesty program, They must plead guilty in court to entering the USA illegally and will be given a 5 year probated sentence and allowed to remain in this country for the 5 year probationary period if they comply with the following requirements.
1. They are not wanted for any crimes in the US or elsewhere. If they are found to be wanted or convicted of a previous crime, they have voided their application for amnesty and will be deported as soon as those cases are settled.
2.They willingly provide fingerprints and DNA samples for future positive identification.
3.They are not arrested for any crimes during the probationary period (similar to parole violations)
4.They must report any change in address or employment during the probationary period.
5.They must report quarterly to verify their ID, address and employment status
6.They must pay taxes and Social Security on any earnings they make in the United States. Social Security will be in their name and count towards their retirement if they become citizens. If they choose not to become US citizens the money paid to social security will be forfeited.
7.At the end of the 5 year probationary period, they can choose to apply for US citizenship, a US work visa or return to their home county. If they have complied with all of the above conditions, their initial conviction for entering the country will be expunged and their record will be wiped clean.
...Richard
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Les asked:
If that's true, and I'm not sure it is, then it's probably because the majority of the Americans that favor the law don't understand that it won't really solve the problem, and not only that, will only go further towards turning this country into a police state.
We already have laws making hiring illegals a crime, and being an illegal a crime. Enforce them. Get the INS to do their job, or disband them. Use forensic accounting to figure out the companies that are hiring the illegals. Follow the money back across the border.
I've said it again, until we actually WANT to solve the problem, it won't get solved. People in the border states are complaining, but they created this mess themselves. The illegals wouldn't be here if it weren't for the jobs. The jobs are the key. Surely we can figure out how to regulate them.
The problem that I see is that the Arizona law simply gives more power to police and potentially less freedoms to Americans, and that scares me.
If I thought it was going to help, I might be in favor, but I think it is a desperation move by the people who are trying to pass it, and a last straw for those that support it. Instead, I'd rather see the problem solved at the source. The source, to me, is the jobs.
I don't believe for a minute that most companies hiring illegals are being duped with forged documents....not for a minute.
We have illegals in this country because the powers that be have wanted illegals in the country. Now, that it has gotten messy, the illegals have to go....which is fine. Best way to get of a stray pet is to stop feeding them.
TJR
If that's true, and I'm not sure it is, then it's probably because the majority of the Americans that favor the law don't understand that it won't really solve the problem, and not only that, will only go further towards turning this country into a police state.
We already have laws making hiring illegals a crime, and being an illegal a crime. Enforce them. Get the INS to do their job, or disband them. Use forensic accounting to figure out the companies that are hiring the illegals. Follow the money back across the border.
I've said it again, until we actually WANT to solve the problem, it won't get solved. People in the border states are complaining, but they created this mess themselves. The illegals wouldn't be here if it weren't for the jobs. The jobs are the key. Surely we can figure out how to regulate them.
The problem that I see is that the Arizona law simply gives more power to police and potentially less freedoms to Americans, and that scares me.
If I thought it was going to help, I might be in favor, but I think it is a desperation move by the people who are trying to pass it, and a last straw for those that support it. Instead, I'd rather see the problem solved at the source. The source, to me, is the jobs.
I don't believe for a minute that most companies hiring illegals are being duped with forged documents....not for a minute.
We have illegals in this country because the powers that be have wanted illegals in the country. Now, that it has gotten messy, the illegals have to go....which is fine. Best way to get of a stray pet is to stop feeding them.
TJR
Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
main Problem is getting legals to do manual labor for Minimum wage.
The fat lazy white folk would rather get welfare and food stamps.
The fat lazy white folk would rather get welfare and food stamps.
TJR,
Only the Federal government can do that, and they have not done anything yetnow they have let it grow until it is completely out of hand
and
You are right about getting rid of the jobs would get rid of the illegal alien problem. But the people in the border states did not create this mess.
I must say again, most companies here are not hiring known undocumented illegal aliens. They hire them because the alien presents documentation that appears to be legal but is not.
We need to come up with a better way to document and ID the legal aliens to reduce or eliminate the use of forged documents or using legitimate documents by illegal aliens, or some way for employers to verify the credentials of everyone they hire.
They do have such a system for checking that American citizens are using their correct Social Security number, but the INS has no such verification system for employers of documented aliens.Again a Federal issue not the fault of the states.
Also, most illegal workers will hop from job to job to avoid detection because they know that the longer they stay with any one employer, the more likely that company will be raided or the employer may find out they are illegal. There is also strong evidence that many illegals are being tipped off prior to an INS raid, so when the INS shows up, oddly enough most of the suspected illegals did not go to work that dayHmmmm?
The few people who do knowingly hire illegals are flying under the radar because they are not operating as legitimate businesses in the first place. Nobody knows they exists and they don't sit in an office or warehouse waiting for the INS to show up. They are small mom & pop operations that operate out of someones pickup truck and dont have an office or business address. They pick up workers to work for the day, pay them in cash and get someone new the next day. These companies are often shady construction, clean up, hauling junk or lawn services who place an ad in the local paper to get business and a few weeks later move on. Good luck finding them with your forensic accounting..LOL
Often the companies hiring illegals are illegal business operations that are owned and operatied by other illegal aliens. They even interviewed one on TV, in Arizona just the other day. He said (in Spanish) that he was illegal, and his entire crew he hired consisted of illegals.
So again, your suggestions or solutions do not hit the target because you do not understand the reality of the problem and just assume that the businesses in the border states want to hire the illegals so they can exploit them for their own gain.That is so far from the truth that it only continues to compound the problem. Those statements may only be your opinion, but they are not the reality and why your oversimplified solutions will not work.
I
I know you dont believe it, thats why I say that you dont know the reality of the problem here, so your opinion and the opinion of others who do not live down here only fans the flames.
Im sure there are companies that hire documented workers and they may even be highly suspicious that the documents are forged. But without any way to detect forged documents, or any avenue to verify the worker is legal, it makes it easy for any company to look the other way and hire the guy. If they are raided by the INS they can simply show the INS that the guy presented what appeared to be legal documentation and they have no way of verifying that the documents are legitimate. The companies know this and the aliens know this and they both use it to their advantage.
Since the INS cannot prove that the company knowingly hired undocumented workers, the companies are off the hook, and continue to hire anyone with documentation dont really care if the documents are forged or not.
I suspect that if there were a verification system available, then the other illegal aliens and liberals would cry foul and play the race card saying that employers are discriminating against Mexicans because they attempt to verify the documentation. And I think we all know that the Federal government would never inact such a law.
Richard
Only the Federal government can do that, and they have not done anything yetnow they have let it grow until it is completely out of hand
and
You are right about getting rid of the jobs would get rid of the illegal alien problem. But the people in the border states did not create this mess.
I must say again, most companies here are not hiring known undocumented illegal aliens. They hire them because the alien presents documentation that appears to be legal but is not.
We need to come up with a better way to document and ID the legal aliens to reduce or eliminate the use of forged documents or using legitimate documents by illegal aliens, or some way for employers to verify the credentials of everyone they hire.
They do have such a system for checking that American citizens are using their correct Social Security number, but the INS has no such verification system for employers of documented aliens.Again a Federal issue not the fault of the states.
Also, most illegal workers will hop from job to job to avoid detection because they know that the longer they stay with any one employer, the more likely that company will be raided or the employer may find out they are illegal. There is also strong evidence that many illegals are being tipped off prior to an INS raid, so when the INS shows up, oddly enough most of the suspected illegals did not go to work that dayHmmmm?
The few people who do knowingly hire illegals are flying under the radar because they are not operating as legitimate businesses in the first place. Nobody knows they exists and they don't sit in an office or warehouse waiting for the INS to show up. They are small mom & pop operations that operate out of someones pickup truck and dont have an office or business address. They pick up workers to work for the day, pay them in cash and get someone new the next day. These companies are often shady construction, clean up, hauling junk or lawn services who place an ad in the local paper to get business and a few weeks later move on. Good luck finding them with your forensic accounting..LOL
Often the companies hiring illegals are illegal business operations that are owned and operatied by other illegal aliens. They even interviewed one on TV, in Arizona just the other day. He said (in Spanish) that he was illegal, and his entire crew he hired consisted of illegals.
So again, your suggestions or solutions do not hit the target because you do not understand the reality of the problem and just assume that the businesses in the border states want to hire the illegals so they can exploit them for their own gain.That is so far from the truth that it only continues to compound the problem. Those statements may only be your opinion, but they are not the reality and why your oversimplified solutions will not work.
I
I know you dont believe it, thats why I say that you dont know the reality of the problem here, so your opinion and the opinion of others who do not live down here only fans the flames.
Im sure there are companies that hire documented workers and they may even be highly suspicious that the documents are forged. But without any way to detect forged documents, or any avenue to verify the worker is legal, it makes it easy for any company to look the other way and hire the guy. If they are raided by the INS they can simply show the INS that the guy presented what appeared to be legal documentation and they have no way of verifying that the documents are legitimate. The companies know this and the aliens know this and they both use it to their advantage.
Since the INS cannot prove that the company knowingly hired undocumented workers, the companies are off the hook, and continue to hire anyone with documentation dont really care if the documents are forged or not.
I suspect that if there were a verification system available, then the other illegal aliens and liberals would cry foul and play the race card saying that employers are discriminating against Mexicans because they attempt to verify the documentation. And I think we all know that the Federal government would never inact such a law.
Richard
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
RichardL,
I still don't understand your one point. If companies cannot detect forged documents, and good forged documentation are as pervasive as you say, how exactly is Barney Fife and other local LEOs supposed to be able to tell the difference when enforcing the new Arizona law?
Also, you say:
That simply doesn't make sense. Also, you keep using labels, like "liberals", and claiming the playing of the race card. Both of which turn an intelligent discourse into name calling, and rhetoric. I suspect you are more intelligent than that.
I'm no liberal. I don't give two ***** about illegal aliens that cry foul. I absolutely DO NOT WANT TO PROTECT THEM. Just the opposite. I want to get rid of ALL OF THEM.
Listen closely. I look at the illegal alien problems like a fruit fly infestation. Sure, you can buy screens, and you can put out poision, and you can even go around trying to spray, and round up the the fruit flys with a swatter.
Or, you can simply get rid of the fruit that the flies are attracted to. Get rid of what attracts them, and they move on.
The jobs are the fruit. We as a country really haven't tried to get rid of the jobs and the people/companies that provide the employment. I really don't think we have.
TJR
I still don't understand your one point. If companies cannot detect forged documents, and good forged documentation are as pervasive as you say, how exactly is Barney Fife and other local LEOs supposed to be able to tell the difference when enforcing the new Arizona law?
Also, you say:
That simply doesn't make sense. Also, you keep using labels, like "liberals", and claiming the playing of the race card. Both of which turn an intelligent discourse into name calling, and rhetoric. I suspect you are more intelligent than that.
I'm no liberal. I don't give two ***** about illegal aliens that cry foul. I absolutely DO NOT WANT TO PROTECT THEM. Just the opposite. I want to get rid of ALL OF THEM.
Listen closely. I look at the illegal alien problems like a fruit fly infestation. Sure, you can buy screens, and you can put out poision, and you can even go around trying to spray, and round up the the fruit flys with a swatter.
Or, you can simply get rid of the fruit that the flies are attracted to. Get rid of what attracts them, and they move on.
The jobs are the fruit. We as a country really haven't tried to get rid of the jobs and the people/companies that provide the employment. I really don't think we have.
TJR
