Judge blocks parts of Arizona immigration law

[Richard L]

TJR,

Your fruit fly analogy is an over simplification of the problem. I agree that not giving illegal aliens a job here is an excellent idea, but how do we know who the illegal aliens are? So we cannot get rid of all the fruit, only the bad fruit that is attracting the fruit flies, but how do we do that? Bad fruit is fairly easy to spot, but bad employersnot as easily



It reminds me of an old story about a cat who is eating all the mice. The mice held a meeting to find a solution to the Cat problem. One smart mouse tells all the other mice that the solution is as simple as just putting a bell on the cat they will hear the bell when the cat is prowling around looking for mice to eat. All the mice cheer and praise this great solution, except for one mouse who interrupts the cheering to ask the smart mouse; But who is going to put the bell on the cat?. Suddenly all the other mice fall silent, and the smart mouse responds; Why do I have to think of everything.



So how do you plan on getting rid of all the bad fruit? You cannot punish employers for hiring illegal aliens when they are given documents they must accept as genuine and have no way to verify them? You may not want to believe this, but most businesses here are operate legitimately and they do not want to hire illegal aliens and have the INS regularly raiding their workplace. Most of the illegal aliens have forged documents, or use documents belonging to a friend or relative and that person may have exactly the same name.



The only way to weed out the bad fruit (employers) is to change all legal immigrant documents to some form that cannot be easily forged and a system for quick verification to insure the document is genuine, and that the person with the documents is indeed that person. Once you can prove who the good apples are, you can concentrate on finding and eliminating the bad fruit and the jobs will dry up.



But the Federal Government has not dealt intelligently with the Illegal Immigration problem, so Arizona has to take steps to protect themselves if the Feds will not.



Richard

 

[Tom Schindler]

Pass the fair tax. Problem solved. Illegals get paid under the table and still pay taxes. They pay taxes on the clothing they purchase, the food they eat, to goods the consume, but they pay more than their fair share since they are undocumented.





Tom

 

[Bill Barber]

Tom

How do you figure they pay more.

 

[Les]

TJR said:

If that's true, and I'm not sure it is, then it's probably because the majority of the Americans that favor the law don't understand that it won't really solve the problem, and not only that, will only go further towards turning this country into a police state

.



So, the American people are ignorant and only your opinion matters. Sounds just like the current administration. You must be proud.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



I never said anyone was ignorant, and I clearly didn't say that my opinion is what matters.



What I've said, the only things I said again and again, are these two things:



1. I have never seen adding additional laws on top of laws that aren't working (or aren't being enforced) solve anything. A better solution, typically, is to understand why the existing laws can't be, or aren't enforced and address those issues.



2. No matter how dire the circumstances that new laws are meant to remedy, when those new laws potentially infringe on the rights and liberties of the citizenry (or could be used to do so) that is when we should put those new laws under scrutiny the most; scrutiny void of emotion.



This particular law fails on both the counts above.



American's have a short memory. When threatened, they are often quick to trample on the liberties that so many patriots have fought and died for.



Again, I am not for protecting the illegals. Just the opposite. I am for protecting the rights of our citizens, and figuring out how to enforce the laws we already have.





Richard L,



The bad fruit is out there. I submit we don't even know how hard it is to find, because I further believe that we haven't really tried to find it. I seriously believe that for the most part, our government (state, local, federal) intentionally "looks the other way" when it comes to those that employ illegals. Forensic accounting alone, with openness of tax records of corps and small businesses, could easily shed the light on tens of thousands of corrupt companies and small businesses.



Netflix did this wounderful thing. They opened up their database and put it on the internet, allowing anyone to try to come up with a better "reccommendations engine." What if the IRS and state govts opened their corp tax databases to registered CPAs (public accountants), allowing any of them to look through the tax, employment and income records fo small and mid-size companies. If this were allowed, the CPAs would uncover tons of red flags. Create a small organization to investigate, pay the CPAs a bounty for each corrupt employer found and make it based on the size of the infractions, and viola....this problem would go away.



Heck, the mere THREAT of such a program would cause many employers to straighten up.



We aren't serious about getting rid of the bad fruit. We are just swatting flies. As long as the bad fruit is here, the flies will always be there.



TJR

 

[Bill V]

Bill V,



Yeah, I should have been more specific. I was talking about within this country.



"This isn't Russia, is it Danny?"



TJR

Yep--but I thought it was worth pointing out (and your "Russia" comment seems to acknowledge) that "show your papers on demand" policies do have a history--and not a good one...



Bill

 

[Les]

Pass the fair tax. Problem solved. Illegals get paid under the table and still pay taxes.

Fair tax would also collect from the 45% of the households currently not paying federal income taxes.

 

[user 64972]

IMO...a flat tax is the only fair tax. Everyone pay 10 or 15 percent. No deductions for anyone. Then they could get rid of 3/4 of the IRS. No filing unless you're self employed!

 

[Bud Williams]

Good grief!

I've been a proponent of the Fair Tax since day one.

But we also need to tax the money these illegals send home via WalMart money transfers

and western union.



Having the fair tax is only part of the solution.

We still need to secure the border from not only hispanics crossing the border but the terrorists crossing the border.



We also need to stop the anchor baby problem, just building a wall isn't the only thing that needs fixing!:angry:

 

[Bill V]

We still need to secure the border from not only hispanics crossing the border... (emphasis added)

Really???!!!



Bud, right there, you unintentionally wrapped up in a nutshell one of the biggest problems with the Arizona law. Far too many of the law's proponents/authors support it not because it cracks down on ILLEGAL ALIENS, but because it cracks down on HISPANICS. THEY'RE NOT ONE IN THE SAME!!!! Regardless of how they try to dress it up, the law was written to crack down on a race, and will in all likelihood be enforced that way. It's the proverbial pig-in-a-dress. You can try to make it look like an attempt to combat illegals all you want--but at its core, it's really an attempt to combat a race, not a citizenship status.

 

[Bud Williams]

Bill V,

According to the US Census "Hispanic" is not a race!!!!



and furthermore, there are muslim terrorists posing as hispanics crossing the border illegally.



If you have muslim terrorists trying to blow up a plane, do you search little old ladies from Iowa? No you look for muslims in their 20's looking suspicious. Call it profiling, but this politically correctness is costing us lives, assets and time, that could be put to better use.

We need to wake up as a country, or we will get hit again, even harder than 9-11.

 

[Bill V]

I hate to break it to you, bud, but there was another incidence of terrorism in recent US history. Remember Oklahoma City?? How is only looking at Muslims and Hispanics going to stop that???



If you really want to make an impact on terrorism, Step One is to drop your assumptions on who the terrorists are, and what they look like. It's the ones in your blind spots who do the real damage.

 

[Tom Schindler]

How do you figure they pay more.

If you know how the fair tax works, then you would know the answer.

IMO...a flat tax is the only fair tax. Everyone pay 10 or 15 percent. No deductions for anyone. Then they could get rid of 3/4 of the IRS. No filing unless you're self employed!

...and the illegals still wouldn't pay a penny of tax on the money they make illegal. The fair tax would collect tax off of everyone legal or not. We would get tax income on those that visit the USA. Everyone would pay tax and illegals would pay more than legals do.



I don't care about how much money they send to family in Mexico. If they buy food, they pay tax on it. If they buy clothing, they pay tax on it.



If we have a flat tax, then they will continue to not pay income tax and the problem persists.





Tom

 

[Bud Williams]

I hate to break it to you, bud, but there was another incidence of terrorism in recent US history. Remember Oklahoma City?? How is only looking at Muslims and Hispanics going to stop that???

I don't remember Timothy McVey having to cross the border to bomb Oklahoma City?



You forgot Malvo and his partner, a pair of black serial killers in VA/DC....



I don't really consider McVey in the same category as Islamic terrorists.



I have some sympathy for McVey, he was caught up in the milita movement of the time.

He was a decorated Gulf War vet.

I fully understand his motivation. If you are familiar with the murder of Randy Weavers' son and wife, and the FBI/ATF that was out of control under Janet Reno you would understand.

Remember WACO? This happened before that...

He was a lone gunmen, pissed off at the Government ie Janet Reno et al.

He was a more of a radical anti--Gov militia follower, than someone part of an ideology of taking over the world. yes radical muslims say convert or die infidels....The sooner we understand and accept this, the sooner we can have some common sense safety measures.

You also forgot to mention the Abortion doctor killers...seems the liberals always want to mention this....:fire:



so yes, you can call Tim McVey a terrorist, but he really was not, he was a mass murderer.



Malvo was more of a terrorist than McVey. He had VA/DC in fear for two weeks.

McVey just killed many people 253? in one event. Malvo was muslim wasn't he?

 

[Les]

Bill V said:

Bud, right there, you unintentionally wrapped up in a nutshell one of the biggest problems with the Arizona law. Far too many of the law's proponents/authors support it not because it cracks down on ILLEGAL ALIENS, but because it cracks down on HISPANICS. THEY'RE NOT ONE IN THE SAME!!!!

Lets see, Arizona borders Mexico, Mexicans are considered Hispanic. Almost all those entering this country illegally in Arizona come from Mexico. Not a difficult equation, figure it out. Much like someone said earlier, why doesn't Minnesota and Wisconsin contribute to patrolling the border. Send down some local officials during the winter, when no one is doing anything, and let them patrol the border. Also send some money, maybe that will help.



Easy to judge when you are 1500 miles away and are not affected by this.

 

[Bill V]

Almost all those entering this country illegally in Arizona come from Mexico.

Yes, but saying "nearly all the illegals are Hispanic" does not equal saying "nearly all the Hispanics are illegal".

Not a difficult equation

You're right, the equation isn't difficult. A is not equal to B. But for some reason, a LOT of people have trouble figuring that one out.

why doesn't Minnesota and Wisconsin contribute to patrolling the border

Also send some money, maybe that will help.

We do--it's called federal taxes.

Send down some local officials during the winter, when no one is doing anything

You make statements like that, and then claim that WE are the ones who have no idea what is going on from 1500 miles away????....

 

[Bud Williams]

Les, don't you wish Frank would jump in anytime now....:bwahaha:

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

I guess I am not going to convince you that simple Forensic Accounting will not find the bulk of the shady businesses that are flying under the radar and knowingly hiring undocumented, illegal aliens.



The fact that these businesses that are hiring illegals, they are often not legitimately registered busnesses. You cannot have the Feds, the IRS, the State or CPA's audit businesses that do not operate as a known business. They are mostly one or two individuals that operate illegal "Cash Only" businesses out of their pickup trucks. There is no paper trail. Heck even the Drug trafficing businesses leave a bigger paper trail than many of the businesses that are hiring the illegal aliens.



Some enterprising illegal aliens will even start their own business if they speak English. The post ads in the local papers to cut lawns, trim trees, haul trash, etc. all are mostly cash only businesses that only require a pickup truck and a cell phone. If a ligitimate business cannot recognize forge document, how is a little old lady who wants her lawn mowed supposed to know, so it would be pointless for her to even ask for documentation.



The legitimate businesses have little or no incentive to knowingly hire illegals. The client I consulted for was a precast/prestressed concrete company and paid workers a starting salary of $10 per hour plus they were getting a bonus for each piece their team completed each day. That could earn as much as $25 per hour. Most of the workers were Hispanic and all had documents but about half had forged documents. When the INS raided them, they would lose half their workforce and that would make it difficult to meet their production deadlines. They were never charged with knowingly hiring illegal aliens because everyone they hired had documentation, and they had no way to verify if their documents were real or forged. That's the position of most legitimate businesses in these border states.



Yes, I would say you are correct that the fault lies with the Feds, the INS, the states, police and businesses in the past who did nothing about the illegal and just turned the other way.

Now everyone wants to fix the problem but using the same rules and laws that failed before.



I think the first step is to introduce new documents to all legally documented immigrants. That will require that all legal aliens go to some INS location to inspect their current documents and verify they are genuine and that the individual presenting the documents is that person. They then will be issued new (difficult to forge documents). That will make all the forged documents worthless. Follow that with a random unannounced document change, to keep the forgers off guard. That's what was done in Vietnam to reduce the blackmarketing of the American military currancy MPC (Military Payment Certificates) In one year they changed the money 3 times and two were within one month.



Flat tax does nothing for the illegal immigrant issue. They are already paying taxes if they are working for a legitimate company. If they are working for an illegal company, they are not paying taxes because there is no paper trail in a cash only business.



...Rich