Duane Leon
Member
how to get my led turn signals to work . I installed resistors on all four corners , when I turn on the say right turn signal the parking light blink to . any suggestions will help.
LED BULBS
- Thread starter Duane Leon
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James Hatch
Active Member
Duane, isn't the parking light amber in the front? Meaning that it would have to blink to be the turn signal?
Unless I am misunderstanding what you're saying. On my ST, the parking lights double as the blinkers, if I have them on.
Unless I am misunderstanding what you're saying. On my ST, the parking lights double as the blinkers, if I have them on.
Dean Hedin
Active Member
Speaking of LED bulb blink'n issues...
A while ago I decided to convert my dash cluster bulbs to white LEDs. I remember changing these bulbs in a previous car and I wanted to just change them to LEDs and never have to worry about them again.
The only spin on this is I decided to make up the individual LED clusters bulbs myself.
I happen to have a bunch of white LEDs on hand.
So I soldered four white 14000 mcd LEDS together in series. They were all glued together in a little quad and then attached to the standard mount. I tested each of the bulbs and they all worked fine on 12-14 volts. I think I made up 6 of these.
Anyhow, I put them in the dash cluster and screwed it all back together.
Waited till nightfall and fired everything up. Dash looks beautiful. Better than stock. I could adjust the brightness with the wheel nicely. I am pretty proud of myself at this point and I'm thinking I'll replace the lights in the area around the radio and AC controls next.
Then something weird began to happen.
As I drove around the block I noticed that the individual cluster lights began to go on and off at a slow rate. The one behind the speedo seems to stay on all the time. The issue worsens
as I increased the brightness such that as I go brighter the blinking interval goes mostly towards the "off" state (but the speedo light always stays on).
If I leave the brightness adjustment at the lowest state everything is OK (but just dim).
The only thing I can figure is that the electronics in the dash are somehow monitoring the current draw in some way and they don't like the lower than normal current draw of the LEDs.
I've left things this way and I just leave the brightness at the lowest setting. Been to busy to muster up the time to go back into the dash again.
I'm thinking I'll put a very carefully chosen resistor value in parallel with each bulb to make them draw a little more current to make the diagnostics happy.
But for the life if me I can't even fathom what kind of algorithm is in play that ends up with the lights blinking the way they do. I really want to talk to the software engineer at Ford who is responsible.
A while ago I decided to convert my dash cluster bulbs to white LEDs. I remember changing these bulbs in a previous car and I wanted to just change them to LEDs and never have to worry about them again.
The only spin on this is I decided to make up the individual LED clusters bulbs myself.
I happen to have a bunch of white LEDs on hand.
So I soldered four white 14000 mcd LEDS together in series. They were all glued together in a little quad and then attached to the standard mount. I tested each of the bulbs and they all worked fine on 12-14 volts. I think I made up 6 of these.
Anyhow, I put them in the dash cluster and screwed it all back together.
Waited till nightfall and fired everything up. Dash looks beautiful. Better than stock. I could adjust the brightness with the wheel nicely. I am pretty proud of myself at this point and I'm thinking I'll replace the lights in the area around the radio and AC controls next.
Then something weird began to happen.
As I drove around the block I noticed that the individual cluster lights began to go on and off at a slow rate. The one behind the speedo seems to stay on all the time. The issue worsens
as I increased the brightness such that as I go brighter the blinking interval goes mostly towards the "off" state (but the speedo light always stays on).
If I leave the brightness adjustment at the lowest state everything is OK (but just dim).
The only thing I can figure is that the electronics in the dash are somehow monitoring the current draw in some way and they don't like the lower than normal current draw of the LEDs.
I've left things this way and I just leave the brightness at the lowest setting. Been to busy to muster up the time to go back into the dash again.
I'm thinking I'll put a very carefully chosen resistor value in parallel with each bulb to make them draw a little more current to make the diagnostics happy.
But for the life if me I can't even fathom what kind of algorithm is in play that ends up with the lights blinking the way they do. I really want to talk to the software engineer at Ford who is responsible.
Jackson Ellis
Active Member
Dean - I think you are hijacking Duane's post and should move this to an original posting so that others can help him. I'm not the board police, but thought I'd start off with that since I want to respond to your post.
Your issue is interesting. If it is a circuit problem, and a resistor is the answer, then I would think that one resistor would fix it, since the entire circuit is in series. One easy thing to try - put the incandescent bulb in the first position and see if the circuit works normally. Then try a second incandescent in the second position. When (if) it works, you'll know how much resistance the circuit needs. I would doubt very much that the resistance at every bulb is monitored like the head and tail light circuits. If it did, you'd see the indicator (whatever that indicator is) that the circuit is broken - and I don't think our trucks do that on this circuit. Good luck.
Your issue is interesting. If it is a circuit problem, and a resistor is the answer, then I would think that one resistor would fix it, since the entire circuit is in series. One easy thing to try - put the incandescent bulb in the first position and see if the circuit works normally. Then try a second incandescent in the second position. When (if) it works, you'll know how much resistance the circuit needs. I would doubt very much that the resistance at every bulb is monitored like the head and tail light circuits. If it did, you'd see the indicator (whatever that indicator is) that the circuit is broken - and I don't think our trucks do that on this circuit. Good luck.
Mark K 2
Well-Known Member
Never mind.
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Dean Hedin
Active Member
Yeah, sorry. Did not intend to hijack the thread. Seemed like James answered Duane anyhow.
I don't think all the dash lights are in series or parallel. They are each under individual control
(since in my case I see them blink individually)
In any case ncstatewolfpacker, Why do you think the lights blink they way they do?
It's crazy.
Perhaps it is the case that there is some kind of PWM driver circuit that changes with the thumb wheel to change brightness. Somehow this circuit senses or depends upon the load of the original incandescent lights.
I don't think all the dash lights are in series or parallel. They are each under individual control
(since in my case I see them blink individually)
In any case ncstatewolfpacker, Why do you think the lights blink they way they do?
It's crazy.
Perhaps it is the case that there is some kind of PWM driver circuit that changes with the thumb wheel to change brightness. Somehow this circuit senses or depends upon the load of the original incandescent lights.
user 66791
Active Member
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I replaced all my dash lights with LED bulbs found online with the right fitting at the base to fit my Gen 2 Adrenalin. Awesome look. I got really tired of the stock lights burning out here and there and each time having to take things apart or paying the dealer. It's actually pretty easy to take the main dash with speedo out and replace those lights. It takes a lot of patience though unless you have smaller fingers as it requires turning the lights in their socket to lock them down. I don't know if there is a difference electrically between GEN1 and GEN2 so that might be the cause of the flickering or just maybe too many LED lights were clustered. I used one LED with proper base in each socket and they work flawlessly.
Jackson Ellis
Active Member
Dean - Most likely, they are getting hot. An LED allows electricity to flow through with near-zero resistance. Because there is no resistance, any voltage increase above their light-emitting threshold causes the current through the LED to spike - quickly. The first LED gets hot and shuts down, which shuts down your whole cluster since they are in series. A resistor before the LED controls the current. Increases in voltage result in controlled current increase, and allows the LED to work over a larger voltage range. The dimmer varies the voltage, and the resistor varies the current. The LED gets brighter with the increased voltage instead of having a current spike and shutting down (or burning out). When you have your dimmer set on it's lowest setting, it seems the current is OK for the LEDs to operate without overheating. As you increase the voltage, the current spikes rapidly and causes the blinking you're seeing. Replacement LEDs (made for a simple bulb switch-out) have resistors built in to their bases.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Are the resistors on the LEDs what makes them "CAN bus proof" LEDs?
Jackson Ellis
Active Member
CAN Bus LEDs do have resistors, but I think they have more than just a resistor, they have a way to remove the resistance if the light goes bad so that the car's system knows that the light isn't working.
Don't know too much about it though.
Don't know too much about it though.
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Dean Hedin
Active Member
I'm not buying your explanation ncstatewolfpacker.
Mainly because I just soldered four of the LEDs in question in series and they run just fine on my HP 6428 bench power supply set at 14 volts. Without a resistor.
At 14 volts they draw about 22 milliamps. At 12.5 volts they are drawing 14 milliamps.
They don't blink...and they have not burnt out. I'll let them run for a while. But they are not even warm.
The LEDs in the sport trac dash all still work and have not burnt out. I have a 2003 gen 1 btw.
It's the sport tracs dash electronics that is blinking them! Why?!
It's a real mystery...
I bought the LEDs from dx.com
I think they are now selling them at qty 100 for 6 bucks and change.
I used a bunch of them to make a light ring for my DSLR camera.
There are just plain 5mm white LEDS, they don't have any overload protection.
Here are the specs:
- Model: C500SW4LD, Material: GaN, Emitting: White
- Forward Voltage 3.2V MIN, 3.4V MAX (20mA)
- Reverse current: 10u (VR=5V)
- Power dissipation: 60mW
- Luminous Intension 14000 mcd MIN, 16000 mcd MAX
- Peak Forward Current: 100mA
- Recommend Forward Current 20mA
Mainly because I just soldered four of the LEDs in question in series and they run just fine on my HP 6428 bench power supply set at 14 volts. Without a resistor.
At 14 volts they draw about 22 milliamps. At 12.5 volts they are drawing 14 milliamps.
They don't blink...and they have not burnt out. I'll let them run for a while. But they are not even warm.
The LEDs in the sport trac dash all still work and have not burnt out. I have a 2003 gen 1 btw.
It's the sport tracs dash electronics that is blinking them! Why?!
It's a real mystery...
I bought the LEDs from dx.com
I think they are now selling them at qty 100 for 6 bucks and change.
I used a bunch of them to make a light ring for my DSLR camera.
There are just plain 5mm white LEDS, they don't have any overload protection.
Here are the specs:
- Model: C500SW4LD, Material: GaN, Emitting: White
- Forward Voltage 3.2V MIN, 3.4V MAX (20mA)
- Reverse current: 10u (VR=5V)
- Power dissipation: 60mW
- Luminous Intension 14000 mcd MIN, 16000 mcd MAX
- Peak Forward Current: 100mA
- Recommend Forward Current 20mA
Jackson Ellis
Active Member
Dean - your HP power supply is a transformer. It's current output is controlled at a low level (milliamps). Your instrument panel is probably on a 5 amp (minimum, could be up to 20) circuit. The 12 volts in these two circuits are not the same animal.
If you remove the battery from your truck and hook up the HP power supply directly to the positive and negative cables, your supplying 14 volts to the truck's electrical system. Start the truck. Won't work, you're orders of magnitude low on current. Milliamps vs hundreds of amps.
If you hook your LED cluster directly to your truck battery's posts (stand back for this one), It's a short circuit waiting to happen. Use very small wires to minimize the effect.
Last experiment. Stick a 9 volt battery (the small square one) to your tongue, and you get a little unpleasant buzz. Stick the leads from a 6 volt golf cart battery to your tongue. You'll get an instant lesson in the old saying, "It ain't the volts, it's the amps!" You'll also need a tongue transplant.
I'm no expert, so I said in my posts above that "I think" and "Most likely." I still think that you are most likely sending too much current through your LEDs. To do bench top testing, you need a car battery charger which can give you a strong current. Be careful, these are DEADLY current loads. And don't really try any of the experiments above - they were for illustrative purposes only.
If you remove the battery from your truck and hook up the HP power supply directly to the positive and negative cables, your supplying 14 volts to the truck's electrical system. Start the truck. Won't work, you're orders of magnitude low on current. Milliamps vs hundreds of amps.
If you hook your LED cluster directly to your truck battery's posts (stand back for this one), It's a short circuit waiting to happen. Use very small wires to minimize the effect.
Last experiment. Stick a 9 volt battery (the small square one) to your tongue, and you get a little unpleasant buzz. Stick the leads from a 6 volt golf cart battery to your tongue. You'll get an instant lesson in the old saying, "It ain't the volts, it's the amps!" You'll also need a tongue transplant.
I'm no expert, so I said in my posts above that "I think" and "Most likely." I still think that you are most likely sending too much current through your LEDs. To do bench top testing, you need a car battery charger which can give you a strong current. Be careful, these are DEADLY current loads. And don't really try any of the experiments above - they were for illustrative purposes only.
Dean Hedin
Active Member
What? My HP supply can deliver 30 amps. It'll give the LEDs all they can draw. Just like the car battery. Google image search "HP 6428 power supply".
The LEDs I put in in the Trac's dash are not blown. They just blink oddly.
I'm certain it is the case that the dash electronics expect a higher current draw than what the LEDs now draw. It is just a mystery to me as to why the Ford engineers did this.
My quandary is what resistor value do I have to put in parallel with the LEDs in order to make this issue to go away. If I make it too low of a resistance, the resistor will get hot. Also do I need to do it to just one of the lights or all of them?
Lets see.. A typical 168 bulb (close to what the trac's standard bulb is) draws 350 milliamps.
V=IR...so
R=V/I
V=14 volts, I=.35 amps
R= 40 ohms.
Let me tell you. 40 ohms gets hot even at 5 volts. In fact about the best I can do is around 1200 ohms without an 1/8 watt resistor getting too hot.
That means I can only increase the current draw of each LED cluster by 10 milliamps or so.
That's brings each LED cluster to 35 milliamps total. Still very far from the standard lamps 350 milliamp draw.
See my problem? I'm going to have to go to a larger resistor that can dissipate the heat or put several of the smaller ones in parallel. But we have a form factor issue here.
The LEDs I put in in the Trac's dash are not blown. They just blink oddly.
I'm certain it is the case that the dash electronics expect a higher current draw than what the LEDs now draw. It is just a mystery to me as to why the Ford engineers did this.
My quandary is what resistor value do I have to put in parallel with the LEDs in order to make this issue to go away. If I make it too low of a resistance, the resistor will get hot. Also do I need to do it to just one of the lights or all of them?
Lets see.. A typical 168 bulb (close to what the trac's standard bulb is) draws 350 milliamps.
V=IR...so
R=V/I
V=14 volts, I=.35 amps
R= 40 ohms.
Let me tell you. 40 ohms gets hot even at 5 volts. In fact about the best I can do is around 1200 ohms without an 1/8 watt resistor getting too hot.
That means I can only increase the current draw of each LED cluster by 10 milliamps or so.
That's brings each LED cluster to 35 milliamps total. Still very far from the standard lamps 350 milliamp draw.
See my problem? I'm going to have to go to a larger resistor that can dissipate the heat or put several of the smaller ones in parallel. But we have a form factor issue here.
Jackson Ellis
Active Member
OK, I didn't realize what type of power supply you have. However, it doesn't change the fact that you haven't put much current to your LEDs on your bench top mockup.
An LED is a diode. Diode's do not "draw" the current that they "need." A diode will take all the current you give it until it is destroyed. Your power supply is regulating the current, or there is something else to your circuit. I promise you - if you wire an LED (or 4 in a cluster) directly to a 12 volt car battery, the LED(s) will be toast.
I'm still not saying you're wrong about the dash electronic system. It may have something to it that either mechanically or electronically is interrupted by having LEDs instead of the 168 bulbs. BTW, you will want your resistor in series with the LED, not parallel.
An LED is a diode. Diode's do not "draw" the current that they "need." A diode will take all the current you give it until it is destroyed. Your power supply is regulating the current, or there is something else to your circuit. I promise you - if you wire an LED (or 4 in a cluster) directly to a 12 volt car battery, the LED(s) will be toast.
I'm still not saying you're wrong about the dash electronic system. It may have something to it that either mechanically or electronically is interrupted by having LEDs instead of the 168 bulbs. BTW, you will want your resistor in series with the LED, not parallel.
Dean Hedin
Active Member
The LEDs do not burn out when connected to a battery. There is no difference between the battery or the big bench supply. They draw within spec of rated current at 13.5 volts. I will repeat, this is four white leds in series.
The LEDs have not burned out in my dash. They have been in the dash for over a year. They just blink at a slow rate as I increase the brightness adjuster. If I keep the brightness adjuster a the lowest setting they all light up fine (but are dim). Something in the dash does not like the LEDs.
If I put a resistor in series with the LEDs they will draw EVEN LESS current. My theory is that the circuit in the dash wants to see MORE current draw, like the real incandescent bulbs do.
If I put a resistor in parallel with the LEDs I can make the whole deal draw more current.
The LEDs have not burned out in my dash. They have been in the dash for over a year. They just blink at a slow rate as I increase the brightness adjuster. If I keep the brightness adjuster a the lowest setting they all light up fine (but are dim). Something in the dash does not like the LEDs.
If I put a resistor in series with the LEDs they will draw EVEN LESS current. My theory is that the circuit in the dash wants to see MORE current draw, like the real incandescent bulbs do.
If I put a resistor in parallel with the LEDs I can make the whole deal draw more current.
Dean Hedin
Active Member
I did learn a little more this evening. As I mentioned this issue has been around for a while. Some time ago I had mail ordered some 194 LED dash lights with the thought of swapping out my "home made" units.
I had ordered two styles. One type is composed of 5 individual LEDs and the other is composed of 10 individual LEDs.
The one made up of 10 LEDs draws 75 milliamps. The one made up from 5 LEDs draws less than 30 milliamps, which is little different from my home made unit.
So I guess I'll try the 10 LED unit and see if that resolves my issue. If it does it will be great.
I had ordered two styles. One type is composed of 5 individual LEDs and the other is composed of 10 individual LEDs.
The one made up of 10 LEDs draws 75 milliamps. The one made up from 5 LEDs draws less than 30 milliamps, which is little different from my home made unit.
So I guess I'll try the 10 LED unit and see if that resolves my issue. If it does it will be great.
Dean Hedin
Active Member
Installed the new LED dash bulbs (the ones that draw 75 milliamps) and everything works!
So, The lesson learned is:
If you are thinking about LED dash bulbs, make sure you get the ones that are composed of ten individual sub LEDS. These will draw sufficient current to ensure the dimmer circuit works correctly. At least this is the case with Gen 1 tracs.
So, The lesson learned is:
If you are thinking about LED dash bulbs, make sure you get the ones that are composed of ten individual sub LEDS. These will draw sufficient current to ensure the dimmer circuit works correctly. At least this is the case with Gen 1 tracs.
