SICKO: Movie

[Thomas Rogers]

Gavin said:

If folks are too stupid or lazy to get health insurance or get a job to pay for their health care, let 'em suffer.

Wow, so I guess your not a Christian then, huh Gavin.



The Christian thing to do would be to help those that are less fortunate.



Heck, the compassionate thing to do would be to help those that are less fortunate.



I guess that 6 year old that happened to be born into a poor family that has made bad choices, that is living in a poor neighborhood with bad schools should simply be written off.



Why don't we just put a bullet to his little 6yo head right now? Might as well, because you don't want him to have healthcare, and the fact is those kids really have access to many if any of the opportunities you mentioned.



You make it sound easy, but for that little kid there is almost no way out.



Aren't we our brother's keeper? Do we want little kids to pay for the sins of their parents?



TJR

 

[TomT]

Unfortunately many of the "less fortunate" people out there are simply lazy and prefer to work the system instead of trying to improve their lives. I have no compassion for those folks. I do believe everyone has a chance these days to get out of the rut. It just takes a little more effort for poor people. Especially poor blacks and other minorities. They have to not only be determined, they have to put up with their own people detesting them because they are trying get ahead. (Keeping it real). Unfortunately it's a vicious cycle that's been going on for the last 40-50 years and what ever we are presently doing is not working. Maybe if we quit feeling sorry for them, it would help them in the long run.

 

[Jose Santana]

So why can't we lower our costs of drugs in this country by importinig from Canada? Oh yea someone said it's bad and they can't guarentee the quality...... Yet we can import everything including agricultural products for human consumption from China and it's all good... It's a greedy society we live in and it ain't due to the poor people. It seems everytime there is an issue somehow it's the poor people fault....

I work hard and have insurance, but these days I have to sometimes try and play SELF DOCTOR with my kids because I can;t afford to go to the Doctors office 3 or 4 times a month during flu season and pay $25 clams in order for them to allow me to get some medicine I know I need.

Then the prescriptions are expensive!. i also see my inlaws being disrespected for working hard all thier lives and now they can;t even afford thier prescriptions.... And it is getting worse.

My wife works in a doctors office and the Doctors are not hurting thats for sure..... Seems they are living ok to me....Houses cars vacations.... so who is fooling who?



Why is it health goes up double digits every year outpacing all inflation?



It's bad out there and even though I worked hard all my life any longterm sickness for me or my wife could be taxing and I consider myself doing ok. Now imagine someone struggling.

Some of you folks here need to understand that life if fickle and if a curve ball comes your way you better hope for some forgivness and compassion from some of the very people you blame for all these woes....



Joseymack

 

[shawn stonbraker 2]

Amen TomT. I have to agree with you there. I know quite a few people that just "work the system". They have no desire to get themselves off welfare and have been on it thier whole life. My area is pretty "depressed". If you don't have an education, you either work at McDonalds, Burger King or are on welfare. Those on welfare won't take jobs at the "fast-food joints" because it's beneith them. Even though they can still get suplimantal welfare to cover the rest of thier "costs". Why should they? They wear the latest cloths, have X-Boxes and drive nice cars all while sitting at home and letting the rest of us pay for everything they have. My ex-babysitter actaully drove a Hummer and had a Mazda 6 (both brand new) and was on welfare. Explain that one to me.

 

[Jeff C]

Aren't we our brother's keeper? Do we want little kids to pay for the sins of their parents?

I don't think the kids should pay, but I shouldn't either, and if it's between him and me paying, it'll be him. I feel bad for the less fortunate, but that's it. Why should I pay to support someone else because they got dealt a bad hand?



Anyone see the movie "Reversal of Fortune"? They gave a homeless guy $100,000, and in 6mo he was broke again with nothing to show for it. People in poverty are usually there because of the choices they made in the past. Why should I pay because someone else made bad decisions in their life? Anyone who said they couldn't get out (of poverty) didn't try. There are so many opportunities in this country, why do you think people keep coming here? They're not going to Canada...

 

[Can Trac]

It boils down to the haves and the have nots... Unfortunately in the US, this gap is growing. Those with money/good job/benefits will always get what they want/need. Those that don't get left behind. Pray that the disparity, resentment, frustration, desperation that people feel doesn't "explode into flames". The US has made the choice to leave health care in the free market where the only thing that matters is the bottom line. A poor choice IMHO. The net effect is more and more average people cannot afford the high cost of health care and as the population ages and requires advanced medical treatements they'll become more of a burden on the system. The rest of you will be paying for them either thru taxes or higher premiums. Companies that give better benefits pass the cost on to the customer completing the vicious circle. Why do you think the big 3 are cutting their work force by leaps and bounds? Because they see the legacy costs in supporting all those hard working employees for the rest of their lives. Unless this cycle is broken, I see a melt-down.



Gavin:

Canada can keep their health plan. They can also keep their high taxes and increase government intrusion into citizens' lives.

Yes, relatively speaking we do pay high taxes, but our national debt is way down and our old age security system is still intact. And I'm pretty confident that the gov't isn't wire tapping my phone or routinely checking my credit card statements....

Yeah, I'll stay in Canada and visit the US more often now that our dollar is just about par. Makes those ST mods all the more attractive!!

 

[Gavin Allan]

I guess that 6 year old that happened to be born into a poor family that has made bad choices, that is living in a poor neighborhood with bad schools should simply be written off.



Why don't we just put a bullet to his little 6yo head right now? Might as well, because you don't want him to have healthcare, and the fact is those kids really have access to many if any of the opportunities you mentioned.



You make it sound easy, but for that little kid there is almost no way out.



Aren't we our brother's keeper? Do we want little kids to pay for the sins of their parents?



TJR

Are you saying that this 6-year old kid is too stupid or lazy to get health insurance or get a job to pay for their health care? And you suggest that putting a bullet to his head is a viable solution? Do you think any reasonable person would think that a 6-year old kid would "have access to many if any of the opportunities (I) mentioned"?



(Typical liberal trying to create a crisis by spinning the facts...)

 

[Alan Peters]

I have a series issue with Michael Moore. I can understand creating a docu-drama about the American Health Care system is broken, but why inflict a political opinion into it. Its all about blaming Bush. Everything is blame bush. Gas prices - bush's fault, weeds in the back yard - bush's fault, my ST leaks oil - again, bush's fault. I heard on the local news a older man came out and directly blamed bush because he couldn't afford a new starter/alternator on his Cadillac. The worst part, the news played it.



I saw a sneak peak of the film in northern Michigan and walked out, it was that bad. Yes we got a refund. If the American System is so bad, I ask you come to Michigan, and sit in hospital parking lots. The Canadians come by the bus loads and pay cash for treatments. You can wait as long as 16 months for an MRI in Canada. My mom is a cardiac physician and has heard tons of horror stories about American system this and Canadian system that. But the scarcest part of all in back in 1993 Hillary Clintons health care for American plan. It wasn't mentioned once in Moore's political bias film. I remember her almost in tears about Hilary's "plan for health care". She was ready to close her practice and retire early. But the legislator wised up and fizzled about.



Why do I, a hard working American, have to pay for some eddie punchclock drunk's healthcare? Don't worry folks, Hospitals are already shrinking, going to smaller clinics, such as walk ins or "general care".



Do you know why prescriptions are so expensive? Patent laws. Merk, etc have to pay researchers millions and find "cure" drugs. An example, my mom's neighbor developed the chemical compound to treat acne and other shin rashes. Guess how much "big bad" drug company paid him? 2 million for the patent, 1 million for is research. That’s past to the consumer. That’s part of the health care system.



The health care system in America is better than any nation. Equipment is state of the art, doctors are top notch, and proper medications are disbursed. But remember when you watch Sicko, I would guess 80% of your health care industry is Democratic. Go figure!



Here's a tip - Depends on how your doctor rights you up is how insurance is billed. 2 people with the same injuries can see the same doctor and be billed totally differently.

 

[Chris Kulbaba]

Amazing, so, so naive.



Trying to help Americans see thier flawed health care system is like trying to convert a hardcore religeous person... No one can help you unless you want to help yourself.



I find it quite funny that 60-70% of you are saying its garbage while others are saying its perfectly fine... I am assuming the ones that think its okay are the ones that have never had a serious health issue. You say you can work hard for your money and pay for the insurance, but as i've whitnessed, and even heard in this thread, even if you DO have the insurance you still might have to work till your dead to pay the bill.

 

[user 62394]

Moore is a lying crack-pot idiot who is trying to push his personal agenda. Bowling for Columbine, Farenheit 9/11, and Roger and Me were all filled with total BS. Just enough truth for him to clear his conscience and say it is journalism, but he he isn't reporting anything. He is just rearranging facts to make them say what he wants to say. I haven't seen Sicko (I refuse to pay him to see a movie, I'll rent it from a video store), but I am sure it is more of the same. Don't believe a word he says.



He is even worse than Al Gore (if he is the best person environmentalists can trot out to talk about global warming, it really is a sham).



Rocks

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Gavin said:

Are you saying that this 6-year old kid is too stupid or lazy to get health insurance or get a job to pay for their health care?

No, I was trying to present that there are innocent victims here...the children of your "so-called" too stupid and lazy people. Should they be made to suffer their parents bad choices (assuming most really even do have a choice)? You never answered that question?



Gavin also said:

(And you suggest that putting a bullet to his head is a viable solution? Do you think any reasonable person would think that a 6-year old kid would "have access to many if any of the opportunities (I) mentioned"?

Yes, given what you are describing and what I know, one of the few solutions to end the cycle is a bullet to the head of all these 6yo. I say that because I absolutely do not believe that all of these 6yo have all the same opportunities and chances to make it to the middle and upper middle class that you claim. They simply do not. You and others might think they do, but I suggest you drive to any ghetto in any city in America, tour the schools, see the opportunities for yourself.



Gavin also said:

(Typical liberal trying to create a crisis by spinning the facts...)

Hint: I'm a registered Republican and voted for every Bush ever on the ticket for president. You might want to think again. Just because someone doesn't look, act, or think EXACTLY like you it is best you not paint them with a broad brush stroke of contempt and label them...all one really does by doing that is show how narrow minded they are.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

Do you know why prescriptions are so expensive? Patent laws. Merk, etc have to pay researchers millions and find "cure" drugs. An example, my mom's neighbor developed the chemical compound to treat acne and other shin rashes. Guess how much "big bad" drug company paid him? 2 million for the patent, 1 million for is research. That’s past to the consumer. That’s part of the health care system.

That same drug will cost 1/4 of that price in Canada and in Mexico, it will cost a quarter.



What does it cost do much? Because they can sell it for that much in the USA. Us ignorant Americans see nothing wrong with it. If the cost was equal around the world, they would recover their costs sooner, AND we Americans would save money.







Tom

 

[Johnny O]

Main thing with health care and insurance costs is to look deeper at the cause of high costs, something the Dems are loathe to do because they will find the trial lawyers, one of their largest contributors. Pass tort reform and reform the FDA and costs will go down.

* I used to work in the healthcare industry and I could see first-hand why it costs what it does.

* I am now self-employed and pay out the nose for my own medical costs and crappy health insurance because it's what I can afford.

* If the government ever takes over healthcare, for sure two things will happen...there will be no more malpractice lawsuits because the govt won't allow it because of the cost, and to hold down costs the govt will have to restrict access. (Cue Monty Python..."But I'm not quite dead." "Shut up, you soon will be.")

I could go on at length here, but I don't have that kind of time today.

Out.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

JohnnyO, having been self employed for several years (a few years back) and having to pay for health insurance for a family I can relate.



I have read studies though that torte reform wouldn't help that much. Sure, I have no doubt it would help and think it is a great idea, but I don't think it will be the best thing we can do.



I think it will require sweeping changes:



- Availability of No/low-cost preventative and wellness healthcare in all areas of the country, especially urban areas. These will have to be paid for through tax dollars.



- Torte reform and crack-down (regulation of?) malpractice insurance carriers all meant to drive down the cost of malpractice insurance.



- Better "policing" and quality control for finding and eliminating "bad doctors"...I call this the "get rid of the quacks" step.



- Increased "transparency" and "choice" in healthcare, especially as it relates to insurance companies. What I mean by this is make it clear exactly what various procedures cost, what insurance pays, what the patient pays, and what alternatives there are. It's kind of like the Progressive Insurance model: "Here is what 5 leading competitor doctors charge for this procedure."



- Consider variants to the HRA approach of insurance. If all of the above (and more) were done, then routine office visits wouldn't cost so darn much and many could pay more of routine stuff out of pocket or with higher co-pays (deductibles). That would mean much lower premiums. Then, for catastrophic illness you pay more and varying rates as you age. It used to be we had health insurance for the major illnesses...now you need it just to stay well...let's fix that.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

Abolish all Health Insurance. When you allow an accountant make medical decisions that a doctor should make, you are asking for trouble.





Tom

 

[Johnny O]

- Increased "transparency" and "choice" in healthcare, especially as it relates to insurance companies. What I mean by this is make it clear exactly what various procedures cost, what insurance pays, what the patient pays, and what alternatives there are. It's kind of like the Progressive Insurance model: "Here is what 5 leading competitor doctors charge for this procedure."

Last month I had to have a CT scan of my sinuses. Hospital was over $1000. My doctor gave me another place to call that was about $430. I called an imaging place near my new office, explained that I was "self-pay", and it was $239. Later I got a bill for $500, they said that was the insurance company rate and the bill just crossed in the mail and not to worry about it.

In this case, I realize that it was not an emergency and I was able to shop around.

 

[Todd Z]

Movie thread turned Health care.......



Gotta love this place....



Todd Z

 

[Thomas Rogers]

ToddZ, well considering it is a movie that is meant to get people to think about, talk about and act on the healthcare problems in the US, I would say that's expected, no?

 

[Todd Z]

Just not liking how the site is flowing lately, Not 1 bit...



Todd Z

 

[Thomas Rogers]

ToddZ, so I guess I shouldn't post an OT thread asking if anyone got an iPhone yet and how they like it?