Bill V
Well-Known Member
That depends. Do you know if the iPhone assembly plant is unionized? 
SICKO: Movie
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V,
...or worse, off-shored?
...or worse, off-shored?
Dre L
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately the Sport Trac pool was peed in. Face it, this is a cross-section of America and some other countries, but mainly America I think. Some of the ideas you see in here, the flawed thinking, the stupidity, the ignorance, that is the problem with the country. Someone who has the same taste in car as you, could also be a ****bag. Frankly, I wonder if some are brave enough to comment in person.
Without singling anyone out, out of the 100% of the members, 40% think another 40% are uneducated, biased, conservative, liberal, typical republican, typical democrat, typical "insert-region-of-country-here". This is what is wrong with America.
20% think that the aforementioned 80% are all idiots and too set in their ways to ever be useful. They also see some of the 80% that, while intelligent, are too proud to admit when their side is wrong and blindly follow rather than set themselves apart from the masses and effect change. The 80% does not even consider the 20%.
With that said, I propose we the 20, just put the 80 out of their misery, start another revolution, and just start over.
FYI, I thought there was no chance of me ever voting Republican, but I'm seriously considering Ron Paul.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Not healthy here. My wife and I have several chronic medical conditions that require continual office visits, medical tests, treatment, and Rx prescriptions. Our insurance coverage is very good. We see nearly any doctor we want to see, and our payment out of pocket is quite low, considering the value of the services and goods we utilize. Like I said, I realize we have good health insurance, but that is because we both have good employers and good jobs. We both have earned multiple graduate degrees, so we feel we have earned our right to have good insurance and good salaries.
Now, not all folks may have great insurance coverage. However, we are not all blessed so well everywhere. Of course, not all folks have worked as hard as we have to achieve our careers either.
As for innocent little kids, I would not propose putting a gun to their heads. However, I do think that their parents should be sterilized before we put them on welfare for the rest of their lives.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Gavin,
Regarding "worked hard" to "earn our right", by my calculations my employer and I are shelling out just over $10K per year, probably closer to $11K for my family to have health insurance and to use if for simply the most basic health and wellness care.
I know what my premiums are...I know what I pay out-of-pocket per year for co-pays, etc (because I get reimbursed those through a flex-spend account, meaning I pay myself back tax-free). Still, $10K or $11K a year and no major incidents...isn't that too much?
Do you really think that's not excessive?
The question here isn't one of working hard and earning it. The question is why should healthcare in America cost so darn much?
TJR
Regarding "worked hard" to "earn our right", by my calculations my employer and I are shelling out just over $10K per year, probably closer to $11K for my family to have health insurance and to use if for simply the most basic health and wellness care.
I know what my premiums are...I know what I pay out-of-pocket per year for co-pays, etc (because I get reimbursed those through a flex-spend account, meaning I pay myself back tax-free). Still, $10K or $11K a year and no major incidents...isn't that too much?
Do you really think that's not excessive?
The question here isn't one of working hard and earning it. The question is why should healthcare in America cost so darn much?
TJR
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
My wife left her previous employer almost two years ago to strike out on her own, over that time she has managed to woo most of her old clients (the good ones anyway) and keep ALL the money, and went from making almost $40k a year with full bennies....to nearly nothing. No wonder they weren't pushing the software she specializes in. I guess it wasn't kicking much into the pot. :lol:
Point being, ya gots to earn your keep.
Point being, ya gots to earn your keep.
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Post what you want, that is the beauty of the site.....
I just cant believe all the flaming going on lately thats all....
Like I said Louisville was a Huge fun event and will be in the future, and none of the behind the computer screen junk came out....
Todd Z
Todd,
I would venture to say that only about 97% of the people that respond to posts like this were not at Louisville, and if they were they would find out what a great time we all had and what great friendships are made. Heck there could be (and should be) at least 100 ST's with over 200 people in Louisville; now wouldn't that shock FOMOCO. We really liked the barbaque restruant Sunday evening, and the buttermilk pie.
I would venture to say that only about 97% of the people that respond to posts like this were not at Louisville, and if they were they would find out what a great time we all had and what great friendships are made. Heck there could be (and should be) at least 100 ST's with over 200 people in Louisville; now wouldn't that shock FOMOCO. We really liked the barbaque restruant Sunday evening, and the buttermilk pie.
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
That BBQ, *insert Homer Simpson drool*
Oh, and Roger, 100+ posts, you, me, Tom, and Todd, that's at least 4 out of 100 which means at most 96%. Please check your stats.:lol:
Oh, and Roger, 100+ posts, you, me, Tom, and Todd, that's at least 4 out of 100 which means at most 96%. Please check your stats.
:lol:Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Simple to answer: US has some of the best health care in the world, and this great healthcare is available to many. Bottom line: You get what you pay for!
I'd rather pay top dollar and keep getting good healthcare. Please don't take away my good services with no waiting lines, even if it means I save a few bucks.
Whatever works for folks is fine with me. If folks don't like our country, I guess they can go somewhere else where they get a better deal for their situation. US fits me just fine. Please don't change my healthcare!
The REAL simple answer is this country is in the SICK care business, not the health care business. Hence the title of the movie "SickO". As I said above, at about post no. 34, doctors need to be paid for keeping us well and not get paid when we get sick. As long as the FDA, Big Pharma and the HMO's are in bed together that will never happen. What I do see happening is a grass roots revolution, which FDA and Big Pharma are atempting to stop both at the National & Global level i.e. CODEX, of companies here building Wellness Care businesses around the country. If you do your homework you will find that Japan is #1 in Wellness Care, and we need to copy their model. Deaths from conflicting medications in this country is ranked at #2 or #3, and if you listen to the drug commercials on TV, to the side affects of the drugs they are promoting, just gives me the willies.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Gavin, I find that you didn't really either understand my question or that you failed to answer it.
You praised our great healthcare saying that it is some of the best in the world. Yes, I won't argue there. You also say "you get what you pay for"...again, no argument from me.
But consider my family as an example. I'm 41. Have three kids, all pretty much healthy. The only "major" medical care we have had is as follows, and I will include approximate charges (total) and our out-of-pocket expenses for them as total/out-of-pocket:
- Miscarriage -- $5k / $250
- Birth #1 -- $4k / $400
- Birth #2 -- $4k / $400
- Ear tubes -- $4k / $300
- Tonsilectomy -- $8k / $300
- Birth #3 -- $4k / $500
- Appendectomy -- $16k / $500
Subtotal: $45k / $2,650
Now, let's add in premiums paid by me and my employer, and copays by me for my family for each of the last 15 years (our "family" years), but to do so, let's look at approx what I was paying 15 years ago (year 1) vs what has been paid this year (year 15).
Year 1: $4K premium, $500 copay = $4.5k
....
Year 15: $8K prem, $3K copay = $11K total
Now I will admit that Year 1 figures above are from memory but I am quite confident they are fairly accurate since I remember what I was paying for insurance when we moved up the the "family" plan from the married plan.
Doing just a quick, standard deviation between years 1 and 15 guess how much is paid for insurance and co-pays? Would you believe just over $116K? Remember, that doesn't include the almost $3K in out of pocket for major medical co-pays and deductibles.
So, me, my family and the various companies I have worked for have paid almost $120K the past 15 years for health care and insurance. For that, we have been "kept well" and insurance companies have paid for $45K in emergency/major medical expense as well as paid all the additional expenses for wellness (which, IMHO, should budgetarily be the equivalent to the cost of changing your oil vs the cost of major vehicle repairs).
Bottomline: 15 years; a family with 2.5 kids (average); $~120K paid towards health insurance and healthcare; $45K of major medical services incurred; miscellaneous health and wellness visits enjoyed.
Of course, I am not including a couple of broken bones and some stitches, here and there, and followup.
But I hope this portrays an interesting trend.
IMHO, we are paying WAY, WAY too much for the healthcare we get. But we who have good jobs and only pay a few hundred a month for their share of premiums, a copay here and a copay there feel like it is a good deal. Because we feel that way, we never analyze the real costs and see JUST how absurd they are.
There is nothing exotic or cutting edge about any of the care my family received above...yet we paid on average almost $10K a year for it....and now, we are paying way more than that.
Even if we assume the wellness visits cost the insurance company $2k per year (a lot), then that's an additional $30K. $30K + $45K = $75K. $116K paid for insurance leaves $41K net for the insurance companies that have served my family. C'mon...we need lower cost insurance and lower cost healthcare.
TJR
You praised our great healthcare saying that it is some of the best in the world. Yes, I won't argue there. You also say "you get what you pay for"...again, no argument from me.
But consider my family as an example. I'm 41. Have three kids, all pretty much healthy. The only "major" medical care we have had is as follows, and I will include approximate charges (total) and our out-of-pocket expenses for them as total/out-of-pocket:
- Miscarriage -- $5k / $250
- Birth #1 -- $4k / $400
- Birth #2 -- $4k / $400
- Ear tubes -- $4k / $300
- Tonsilectomy -- $8k / $300
- Birth #3 -- $4k / $500
- Appendectomy -- $16k / $500
Subtotal: $45k / $2,650
Now, let's add in premiums paid by me and my employer, and copays by me for my family for each of the last 15 years (our "family" years), but to do so, let's look at approx what I was paying 15 years ago (year 1) vs what has been paid this year (year 15).
Year 1: $4K premium, $500 copay = $4.5k
....
Year 15: $8K prem, $3K copay = $11K total
Now I will admit that Year 1 figures above are from memory but I am quite confident they are fairly accurate since I remember what I was paying for insurance when we moved up the the "family" plan from the married plan.
Doing just a quick, standard deviation between years 1 and 15 guess how much is paid for insurance and co-pays? Would you believe just over $116K? Remember, that doesn't include the almost $3K in out of pocket for major medical co-pays and deductibles.
So, me, my family and the various companies I have worked for have paid almost $120K the past 15 years for health care and insurance. For that, we have been "kept well" and insurance companies have paid for $45K in emergency/major medical expense as well as paid all the additional expenses for wellness (which, IMHO, should budgetarily be the equivalent to the cost of changing your oil vs the cost of major vehicle repairs).
Bottomline: 15 years; a family with 2.5 kids (average); $~120K paid towards health insurance and healthcare; $45K of major medical services incurred; miscellaneous health and wellness visits enjoyed.
Of course, I am not including a couple of broken bones and some stitches, here and there, and followup.
But I hope this portrays an interesting trend.
IMHO, we are paying WAY, WAY too much for the healthcare we get. But we who have good jobs and only pay a few hundred a month for their share of premiums, a copay here and a copay there feel like it is a good deal. Because we feel that way, we never analyze the real costs and see JUST how absurd they are.
There is nothing exotic or cutting edge about any of the care my family received above...yet we paid on average almost $10K a year for it....and now, we are paying way more than that.
Even if we assume the wellness visits cost the insurance company $2k per year (a lot), then that's an additional $30K. $30K + $45K = $75K. $116K paid for insurance leaves $41K net for the insurance companies that have served my family. C'mon...we need lower cost insurance and lower cost healthcare.
TJR
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Jeff C
Well-Known Member
It's called insurance. When you need an organ transplant, I'm sure you'll be glad you have insurance. And honestly, 10-15k a year for a family doesn't seem too much to me. How much is your family worth?
WXMotorSports DecalsPartsAccs
Well-Known Member
Myself, wife and two kids. 3K a year in premiums. Then again she works for a major insurance carrier and our auto and health is very affordable.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Jeff C said:
Well that's the problem now isn't it? The "insurance" model isn't viable for healthcare I am afraid. People like me (and there are 10s of millions on them in the US) are paying about 2x or more in premiums and out of pocket expenses then they would ever pay if they simply did a "pay as you go". Yes, I am familiar with how “if you are lucky†insurance is a bad investment, but c’mon!
I (personally) would rather have insurance for "catastrophic care" only, and for all other healthcare do “pay as you goâ€. Of course that type of insurance is not really provided. If it were you would see much more competition and lower costs for ordinary wellness care. Also, premiums for catastrophic care would be based on risk, so young, healthy folks would pay little...as it should be. Older folks, in their 60s, 70s, 80s would pay through the nose...but then again, as it should be. Do you carry "collision insurance" on a 10 year old car worth only a few hundred dollars? Of course not. Same would be true with the elderly and major medical care...why pay 10s of thousands a year in premiums and have insurance companies rack of 100s of thousands in extreme care costs to try to prolong someone in their 70s when they have a major problem...makes no sense (call me heartless...both my parents died at 57).
Jeff C also said:
I was waiting for that one and was hoping no one would ask. It is an insulting question. It's not about worth as my family like yours is priceless. My dad used to have a saying: “I wouldn’t take a million dollars for any of my kids, but at the same time wouldn’t pay a dollar for another one!†We let our emotions get away from us when it comes to healthcare. However we have no problem considering how much we should pay for housing, for vacations, for education, etc. Healthcare should be the same way. I suspect, and I am not alone, that when all is said in done in my life and my families time (as long as I am responsible for them financially) that I and my company will have paid probably double in premiums and out of pocket expenses than was charged by doctor’s and hospitals. But what about the one or two costly medical tragedies that could bankrupts a family…well, the question is, “isn’t healthcare already bankrupting families?â€, and another question is, “might not all that money paid in premiums and in out of pocket costs, if invested, returned enough to pay all the families healthcare needs?â€
Healthcare costs shouldn’t be viewed as insurance, but as investment. My investment is showing very poor returns.
TJR
Well that's the problem now isn't it? The "insurance" model isn't viable for healthcare I am afraid. People like me (and there are 10s of millions on them in the US) are paying about 2x or more in premiums and out of pocket expenses then they would ever pay if they simply did a "pay as you go". Yes, I am familiar with how “if you are lucky†insurance is a bad investment, but c’mon!
I (personally) would rather have insurance for "catastrophic care" only, and for all other healthcare do “pay as you goâ€. Of course that type of insurance is not really provided. If it were you would see much more competition and lower costs for ordinary wellness care. Also, premiums for catastrophic care would be based on risk, so young, healthy folks would pay little...as it should be. Older folks, in their 60s, 70s, 80s would pay through the nose...but then again, as it should be. Do you carry "collision insurance" on a 10 year old car worth only a few hundred dollars? Of course not. Same would be true with the elderly and major medical care...why pay 10s of thousands a year in premiums and have insurance companies rack of 100s of thousands in extreme care costs to try to prolong someone in their 70s when they have a major problem...makes no sense (call me heartless...both my parents died at 57).
Jeff C also said:
I was waiting for that one and was hoping no one would ask. It is an insulting question. It's not about worth as my family like yours is priceless. My dad used to have a saying: “I wouldn’t take a million dollars for any of my kids, but at the same time wouldn’t pay a dollar for another one!†We let our emotions get away from us when it comes to healthcare. However we have no problem considering how much we should pay for housing, for vacations, for education, etc. Healthcare should be the same way. I suspect, and I am not alone, that when all is said in done in my life and my families time (as long as I am responsible for them financially) that I and my company will have paid probably double in premiums and out of pocket expenses than was charged by doctor’s and hospitals. But what about the one or two costly medical tragedies that could bankrupts a family…well, the question is, “isn’t healthcare already bankrupting families?â€, and another question is, “might not all that money paid in premiums and in out of pocket costs, if invested, returned enough to pay all the families healthcare needs?â€
Healthcare costs shouldn’t be viewed as insurance, but as investment. My investment is showing very poor returns.
TJR
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
TJR said:
The main reason the insurance model (if optional) isn't viable for healthcare is that healthy people who don't need it rarely buy it. People who do need it will buy it, ergo more money will flow out than flow in, and that's not how insurance companies like to do business. With any insurance, the people who don't have claims pay for the ones who do. Currently that's sort of how healthcare works, the people with insurance pay for the ones who don't. Hospitals charge out the wazoo to insurance companies to cover costs for the healthcare they give to people who can't or don't pay.
My national health insurance would work this way: Take the total dollar amount spent on healthcare in a year divided by the number of people in the country...every man, woman, child, and that's what you pay. Got eight kids, well then you're paying for eight. I don't care how much money you make or don't make. Rich people get appendicitis, poor people get appendicitis....everybody pays the same. Bill Gates can write a check, poor folks get it deducted from their welfare check.
You can already do exactly that. You just need to find the right insurance agent. Although I agree, there doesn't seem to be any sort of cost competition.
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
JohnnyO said:
Sounds good to me because I have to think I would be paying a lot, lot less.
TJR
Sounds good to me because I have to think I would be paying a lot, lot less.
TJR
Note: SOME OF THE BEST CARE IN THE WORLD.
Not The best care in the world.
What does that mean? It means our system is not the best, but better than most. So, are we the best, or somewhat the best?
Is being somewhat the best something to be proud of? Is there a better way to do it?
Tom
I am on my 15th organ transplant. :lol: They are very common. Three times I hit the MAXIMUM payout.
Insurance companies have those clauses. So even if you have insurance, once it gets to a certain point, they are off the hook.Tom
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Well hell, Tom... What's wrong with being 2nd or even 3rd best? Close enough for government work, etc.?
Guess if we really want to get serious, we'd drop about 50 pounds, sell our Tracs and get bicycles...
