What place in the world are we in health care? 2nd, 3rd? I would be willing to bet lower...much lower.
If a better system exists, why not go that route?
Tom
If a better system exists, why not go that route?
Tom
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Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by "best"?
Everyone has the same level of care?
Some folks have very excellent care?
No one pays much for the care they get?
Low cost.
High quality.
Everyone covered.
(Choose any two.)
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
Can we outsource health care to Japan? :lol:
It's called insurance for a reason, same way you have car insurance or home insurance. You pay so that when you need it, it's there. My uncle needed an organ transplant last fall. He was in the hospital for 3 months before he passed, and I know for a fact that my aunt didn't pay anything out of pocket.
I had a major sports injury this spring, and I got to see THE BEST doctors in the world at HealthSouth (you know, where athletes from all over the world come for their health care). 2 days, an MRI, and physical therapy 2x a week for 2 months, and all it's cost me was the initial $25.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Jeff C said:
Okay, then let people shop around and have better choice. Reduce the costs to parallel those of auto insurance and use the auto insurance model of liability (basic) and comprehensive/collision (major medical). Oh, and require by law that all people have insurance. If you don't have auto insurance you can't drive, or if you do drive and have issue you get fined and possibly to go jail.
The same should be true if we want the health insurance model to work. We need more competition so that costs get lowered and EVERYONE has to by law participate so that those that have policies aren't paying for those that don't.
Unless we are willing to do all that, I don't want to hear that it's like "any other insurance" anymore.
TJR
Okay, then let people shop around and have better choice. Reduce the costs to parallel those of auto insurance and use the auto insurance model of liability (basic) and comprehensive/collision (major medical). Oh, and require by law that all people have insurance. If you don't have auto insurance you can't drive, or if you do drive and have issue you get fined and possibly to go jail.
The same should be true if we want the health insurance model to work. We need more competition so that costs get lowered and EVERYONE has to by law participate so that those that have policies aren't paying for those that don't.
Unless we are willing to do all that, I don't want to hear that it's like "any other insurance" anymore.
TJR
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
The only insurance you're required to have is in case you hit someone else or cause a wreck and it's your fault. Since that's not possible with health care, it's not required. You're not required by law to carry auto insurance to cover yourself.
So, IMO, it is the same. You don't have to have it, but it's a good idea.
So, IMO, it is the same. You don't have to have it, but it's a good idea.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Jeff C said:
That's simply not true.
Everyone is required by law to have liability insurance, and it covers liability...which is the most basic coverage for when you are liable in an accident; but it ALSO covers against uninsured motorists.
Likewise the number of uninsured motorists is kept as low as possible by REQUIRING that liability be held by all drivers. This requirement helps to keep liability insurance lower in cost. If this were not the case, many, many fewer people would have liability insurance and claims involving uninsured motorists would be even more prevalent...thus liability insurance would skyrocket in price if that were the case.
Thus what I am suggesting is exactly the same thing.
By not requiring, by law, that everyone have some form of base, basic health insurance we must assume that the people that do have health insurance are paying inflated rates in order to cover those that are uninsured...just as they would if people could opt out of having liability insurance.
Frankly, we see this already, or at least that's the common claim...that health insurance and medical costs are so high because of having to cover the costs for all those without insurance.
If there were some penalty (fines, jailtime) for those not having basic health insurance than the cost of such insurance would be lower...it's common sense...it works that way for auto insurance.
TJR
That's simply not true.
Everyone is required by law to have liability insurance, and it covers liability...which is the most basic coverage for when you are liable in an accident; but it ALSO covers against uninsured motorists.
Likewise the number of uninsured motorists is kept as low as possible by REQUIRING that liability be held by all drivers. This requirement helps to keep liability insurance lower in cost. If this were not the case, many, many fewer people would have liability insurance and claims involving uninsured motorists would be even more prevalent...thus liability insurance would skyrocket in price if that were the case.
Thus what I am suggesting is exactly the same thing.
By not requiring, by law, that everyone have some form of base, basic health insurance we must assume that the people that do have health insurance are paying inflated rates in order to cover those that are uninsured...just as they would if people could opt out of having liability insurance.
Frankly, we see this already, or at least that's the common claim...that health insurance and medical costs are so high because of having to cover the costs for all those without insurance.
If there were some penalty (fines, jailtime) for those not having basic health insurance than the cost of such insurance would be lower...it's common sense...it works that way for auto insurance.
TJR
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
Here. Law requiring health insurance. Now they're the same.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Jeff C,
Good find. But though I have been saying that passing a law requiring health insurance would help to fix the problem, I suspect it to too unrealistic a solution. I think the uninsured would still be a huge problem and if we truly were tough on the violators then the govt and taxpayers would pay regardless in the form of building more prisons.
TJR
Good find. But though I have been saying that passing a law requiring health insurance would help to fix the problem, I suspect it to too unrealistic a solution. I think the uninsured would still be a huge problem and if we truly were tough on the violators then the govt and taxpayers would pay regardless in the form of building more prisons.
TJR
Theresa and I seen the movie lastnight. Absolutly loved it.
Socialism is bad? Schools, fire protection, police protection, and libraries are all socialist things. All pay a little each for all to enjoy.
Why should health care be the same way?
Tom
Socialism is bad? Schools, fire protection, police protection, and libraries are all socialist things. All pay a little each for all to enjoy.
Why should health care be the same way?
Tom
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
I tend to think that the Cuban government only showed Moore the good hospitals for the govt Party members. Regardless, in my June '07 issue of Cigar Afficianado there is extensive coverage of the Cuban tourism "industry" and it sounds basically like service in the hotels is not good and the food sucks wherever you go. So I wouldn't hold my breath over the health care for the average Cuban. If the place was all that great, they wouldn't be risking life and limb paddling a bathtub to the Keys. See link.
Damn fine cigars though...not that I'd know, that would be illegal.
Damn fine cigars though...not that I'd know, that would be illegal.
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Bill V
Well-Known Member
I don't know about Cuban food in Cuba--but I've had a ton of Cuban food in Miami, and it is SUPERB!!!! I can't imagine it being all that different in Cuba.
Say what you want about the quality of the health care here--at least we don't have these doctors....
Say what you want about the quality of the health care here--at least we don't have these doctors....
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
It's pretty simple really. If you make lousy food here, no one will buy it and you'll be out of business.
In a Communist country, the govt owns and runs almost everything, there is no profit motive or competition, and you get paid the same regardless if you do a good job or not.
Rent the movie "The Buena Vista Social Club" sometime. Netflix has it.
We keep wanting to single out the "magic bullet" both in nutrition and medicine. What we need is a holistic / synergistic approach like nature intended. Read the book "The China Study".
I have friends that went to Cuba. They had nothing but positive things to say about Cuba.
They are from Germany.
The real question is, have we American been so brainwashed to think we have the best government? How many of us have lived under a different government? How many of us have known people that have lived in a communist country?
Are we being subjected to government propaganda telling us the USA is the greatest? Are we that stupid to actually think that way?
Tom
They are from Germany.
The real question is, have we American been so brainwashed to think we have the best government? How many of us have lived under a different government? How many of us have known people that have lived in a communist country?
Are we being subjected to government propaganda telling us the USA is the greatest? Are we that stupid to actually think that way?
Tom
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Johnny O
Well-Known Member
Well sure they loved Cuban food. My grandmother was German, I've had German food. That's why I hang with the Italian side of my family. Ya eat a lot better. :lol:
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
On a side note, Micheal Moore has authorized his movie to be released on the internet for everyone to be free.
Check it out at the link below.
Tom
Check it out at the link below.
Tom
Bill V
Well-Known Member
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
That was in response to Caymen's comment about his German friends enjoying Cuban food. But it could just as easily have been to his question, "Have we Americans been so brainwashed to think we have the best government?"
I have American friends who have visited Cuba, and have also loved everything about their country, including the food. (OK, they don't love Cuba's system of government. But they loved everything about the country that was pertinent to their visit.) Although their coffee takes some getting used to, to say the least.
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The point is, we have to accept that there are positives and negatives about ALL types of government. Some may be better than others, but there is not one that is the best.
We are always told how great our government is. We are told how proud we should be as Americans.
Hitler told the Germans how great Germany was. Hitler also told the Germans to be proud to be a German.
Japan did the same thing.
We know how those two countries did. Lets not put ourselves in that situation.
Tom
We are always told how great our government is. We are told how proud we should be as Americans.
Hitler told the Germans how great Germany was. Hitler also told the Germans to be proud to be a German.
Japan did the same thing.
We know how those two countries did. Lets not put ourselves in that situation.
Tom
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
Downloading now, thanks for the link and info, Tom.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Is Moore's movie an indie film produced by his money and his money alone? Is he the only one that would be served by the profits or hurt by the lackthereof?
If the answer to both questions above are "Yes", then all you folks download with a clear conscience. However, if the answers are "No", which is what I assume, then shame on Micheal who seems to like to point out the bad behavior of others.
TJR
If the answer to both questions above are "Yes", then all you folks download with a clear conscience. However, if the answers are "No", which is what I assume, then shame on Micheal who seems to like to point out the bad behavior of others.
TJR
