the famous toyota recall......

[Thomas Rogers]

Hugh, no offense because this was your mother, but on the surface of what you describe, the definition I usually assume for a "safe traveling distance" is that which allows for me to safely stop should anything unexpected happen to the car in front of me.



The fact that your mother could not stop makes me think that the report was flawed, and that she was not traveling at a safe distance or a low enough speed.



You seem to think or imply that IF the anti-lock brakes were working, that she would have certainly stopped within a shorter distance.



Well, consider the following...



I suspect that we have all heard arguments on both sides of the debate anti-lock brakes in the situation you describe. Many claim that they will increase the stopping distance, not decrease it, when working properly. That makes sense to me, because they are supposed to detect a skid, and essentially go into a mode where they pump the brakes on and off faster than any human could. When that happens there is less braking going on, not more, and arguably less overall stopping power, not more...again, arguably.



Antilock brakes are a good thing, but IMHO they tend to increase stopping distances when active and when all other things are considered, but at the expense of helping to prevent the car from going into a full-blown skid and into a total "loss of steering control" situation.



Again, I question if what you describe is a "completely fail" situation for the Camry. Just like airbags, antilock brakes don't always activate when one might expect, and like airbags they AID in certain situations, and have their pros and cons. On wet, slick and other forms of loose pavement, and with a straight skid, I don't see anti-lock brakes even if active reducing stopping distance. Not in the least, and probably increase the distance needed to stop. But that's my opinion, based on some research and my understanding of physics.



Sorry to hear about your mom...



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

Antilock brakes are a good thing, but IMHO they tend to increase stopping distances when active and when all other things are considered, but at the expense of helping to prevent the car from going into a full-blown skid and into a total "loss of steering control" situation.

A well trained driver can stop in shorter distances without ABS, but the average driver stops in shorter distances with ABS.



Fact is that Hugh lost his mother in an auto accident where a safety feature did not work. Regardless if the safety feature would have saved that person is irrelevant. It didn't work and Hugh has to live each and every day of his life knowing that there is a possibility that Toyota killed his mother.



No excuses, Toyota killed his mother.





Tom

 

[gary s]

"No excuses, Toyota killed his mother."



sounds like a bad case of speculation. :sad:



hugh, as with caymen, your ridiculous statements speak of your lack of knowledge and experience. when you lose someone close to you, there is a tendency to label blame on someone/thing. it is part of the grieving process.

"Hugh, I feel your pain.". tom, didn't know you lost someone close to you due to a toyota failure.



BTW: has anyone ever died because of a ford defect??????

defects happen all around us that cause deaths.



guys, you have to stop driving down one way streets :cry:



"residule" is a good thing :grin:

 

[H D]

My mom is just fine. She bought a Honda to replace the Camry and now has a Chevy. Better than ever now, actually.

 

[H D]

And any failure in a "safety" feature is an unacceptable failure. Am I absurd to insist on this, regardless of situation?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Hugh,



Regarding your very last question above, just to understand what I am saying, let me restate. Active safety features like ABS and airbags are don't always activate in all situations, even those you might expect they would. And, when they don't, it doesn't necessarily mean a failure.



What evidence was there in your mom's case that they failed? Did the onboard computer show they never kicked in just prior to the accident? Also, just like in airbag that doesn't deploy it's difficult to determine with any degree of certainty exactly how things would have been different if activated. For the ABS situation, depending on road conditions, stopping distance might actually have bee increased.



I get your frustration. My father was killed when the van he was in was hit by a truck that crossed the center line when it's tire blew. My dad's airbag didn't deploy. Do I blame GM? Nope. I blame the ******* state of OK DOT mechanic who either didn't know better or didn't care when he illegally patched the sidewalk of the tire that blew on the other vehicle. I further blame the backwards-ass state of OK for having 100k limited torte for govt agencies, which in effect, gives them the license to recklessly kill people through their actions and get away with it, and assume almost no punitive damages in the process. The threat of punitive damages is one of the main reasons companies and agencies "do the right thing" in this country. Take away that threat, and you get some bad stuff happening.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Hugh,



One other thing.



If you are convinced that the ABS on your mom's car was faulty and that if it had worked an accident would have been avoided, then suing Toyota and seeking punitive damages, especially if under a class action lawsuit with other customers having been injured by the same failure would have been your appropriate recourse, and some would say your duty. By holding companies accountable through punitive damages they will do better.



I'm interested in understanding if that avenue was ever considered, especially since you seem so convinced of Toyota's liability.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



Hugh never said his mom was dead. Going of half cocked again I see. Lol



Gotta go...the airbag light on my Ford is acting up...again.



TJR

 

[H D]

Btw, shouldn't the title of this thread be "Infamous", not "famous?" I still think this is more embarrassing to Toyota than a claim to fame.



Actually, I believe the onboard computer did report no ABS activation, but I don't really remember. She was advised to bring suit against Toyota but didn't want to deal with it. I'm not sure if it was an existing class action suit or not. She just wanted to replace the car and get on with life.



What I mean by my question is, if it is truly a safety feature, then we should insist that in every instance where it can help save lives, it should work? Not just 50% of the time, if the all the conditions are right, with the correct angle of impact, with the right humidity and cloud coverage, etc. Now, if anti-lock brakes are less effective on wet roads, make that condition matter...and so on. But it was early summer in Georgia with the temperature somewhere in the high 80s or low 90s, no rain, flat perfectly paved highway and she made a 100% square-on impact with the front end, didn't go under the rear of the other car, blah blah blah. There were two thick strips of rubber on the road and no airbag deployment.



She was following the truck in front of her at a safe distance, but he pulled a crazy stunt and switched lanes between two dump trucks right at the last moment, almost hitting the stopped car. So, now, my mom had basically 5 car lengths to avoid a stopped vehicle, not a slowing down vehicle as a normal case would have allowed for if the truck in front of her had slammed on his brakes, adding to the distance that was needed to stop as he continued forward movement while stopping. Rather it, was as if the "safe distance" measure had no real effect here in the same way as if you were following a car in front of you on a bridge and the bridge collapsed right at the point of the car in front of you. You're going off that bridge even though you were at a safe distance; the situation just didn't follow normal circumstances. You can prepare all you want and be as safe as you can be, but accidents do still happen.



I think it was determined that she was probably going about 35 when she made impact, so there was a 20mph decrease in speed. I could probably do some physics and figure out the specifics a little better, but that would hardly be worth it. The car looked like it had been sent over a 100ft cliff so I guess the crumple zones worked. It was completely destroyed from this wreck and not at all salvageable even if you really, really wanted to.



For reference, I wrecked the '99 Accord into a hillside with a rock-face (avoiding a spandexed bicyclist leaned over into my lane) on a bend from a starting speed of about 35. The anti-lock brakes worked, no skid on a slightly wet road, front left side damaged, no airbag deployment, but easily fixed @ $6k, no ticket. My little sister last year put the same car into a giant oak on a gravel road at about 35, anti-lock brakes undetermined (gravel), airbag deployed, and about $6k damage that totaled it from value rather than complete loss.



It is worth noting that the Camry was a new car and still under warranty, so all maintenance was done by the dealership.



I'm really sorry to hear about your dad. That is shameful that the state would have even drafted such legislation, let alone let it pass. It's as if they foresaw instances where negligence of state employees could result in wrongful death or serious losses, but wanted to minimize their responsibility and lose as little of "their" money as possible. Again, sorry to hear that.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Hugh, given your families record of head-on collisions I am not sure there is a safe vehicle out there for y'all. Lol



TJR

 

[H D]

I could see how you might draw that conclusion based on reading this thread alone. lol



Not true, though. And my accident was to save the life of a stupid bicyclist. Instead of sharing the road, I spared his life and forfeited the road.

 

[gary s]

hugh,



again i mention "speculation". what type of investigation was performed for the camry accident?

were the vehicles impounded and inspected by professionals? was there any accident reconstruction at the scene? as tjr mentioned, were the onboard "black boxes" read by a professional?

unless any of this was done again i have to defer to speculation.



btw: where is caymen?

 

[Tom Schindler]

btw: where is caymen?

Caymen has a severe case of some type of virus with a 103 degree fever.





Tom

 

[H D]

None of that was done. I wanted to be sure to be able to go onto Ford based forums 8 years later and blast Toyota, so I made every effort to cover up the facts. As soon as I perfect my lies on here, I will head over to a Tacoma forum and talk about the greatness of Ford.



I don't hold it against anyone for buying Toyota. I don't drive around thinking "look at those fools." I just have a personal preference not to buy Toyota based on prior experience. Have you ever eaten a food that you got sick from and no longer have a taste for that particular food even though you know it is unlikely you will get sick from it again? Same kind of situation.



I'm sorry my distaste for Toyota has been such a thorn in the side of this Ford-based forum. I will withhold further judgment of the great Toyota.





















Oh, and buy Ford!

 

[Tom Schindler]

Hugh,



These guys are sharp....aren't they? They figured you out real quick.



You have been waiting years for this moment abd they took away your thunder. We all know that if you bash Toyota on a Ford based forum, you are commiting one of the 7 deadly sins.



Toyota is the greatest auto maker ever and if anything goes wrong, it is simply sabatage.





Tom

 

[EddieS'04]

Hugh,,

It took me awhile to figure out, that there are a few on here, that bait the hook. They love to see who they can reel in. Sometimes I dont think they believe what they post themseles.



I find it to be web bullying with a nice attitude. I suppose the best word for it is devils advocate. You will never be able to explain yourself or answer their questions.



They just continue to reiterate from another angle. Even when others can tell the question has been answered. Like an inquesition. It only ends when you quit posting.

Akin to folks that like to hear their own voice.



It would rather someone say they dont agree or believe me. Then leave it alone. My catching onto this and getting argumentative. Has caused a few on here not to talk to me much in a few years.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

No bullying by me. Just asked a few polite questions to try to understand what was being said. Hugh didn't seem to mind. Typically the only people that get their panties in a twist when asked to explain something are those that do a lot of talking out of their arse. ;-)



TJR

 

[H D]

I don't really mind. I just get bored with it sometimes, though.



I don't need to post my opinions of Toyota on a forum for Toyota to be embarrassed by their products. They make such works of art as the Yaris and Prius.:cheeky::grin:

 

[gary s]

ok now i get it.

speculation has turned into deflection.

hugh makes a statement that the camry caused his moms accident. he blames safety failures by toyota with what appears to be from an investigation. i ask what type of investigation was performed and he states none.

caymen then jumps in that toyota killed his mother. as usual, he knows nothing of what occured, and then makes another azz like comment based on his hate not facts.

for the record, i dont hate ford, i own one and have in the past. do i prefer toyota, yea as hugh said experience is an important factor.

there were plenty of talk of the recall including caymens recent post, so i thought if facts were posted some would be more aware.

imo, some here only want to see and hear what is works for them. you can also stop with this a ford website. i get it, but dare you mention something other.

so again, when called out, some go into deflection mode :sad:



btw: eddie, i want my fusion back :bwahaha:

 

[EddieS'04]

Gary.. I can send it back. I just need to get it unhooked from offshore hook and leader and cut this 1000lb test line.

Been trying to catch the toyotas, running down my street, with it. They keep spitting the hook out..:bwahaha::haveabeer: