The Law is the Law!

[scott degroot]

TJR,12/16/2010 11:55 MT



Jerry,



People don't seem to be able to tolerate differences anymore. It used to be if you weren't religious it was enough to simply NOT go to church and look the other way when you encountered some religious activity or symbol in public. Now it seems everyone has to have their own crusade. Everyone has to show how important they are by displaying how they are offended, how they have somehow been wronged.



It's B.S. Personally, I think there needs to be some common sense put back into all of this. Unless someone can show how they were PERSONALLY injured (either physically, monetarily, or emotionally) by some religious display then I think they should simply STFU. Likewise, if they bring a lawsuit to a town, or county, etc, and they cannot PROVE how they were injured, then I think they should be liable for court costs AND hit with a baseless lawsuit fine.



We don't need crusaders out there for BS like this.



No one is being hurt by words on our money, or a plague on courthouse wall, or by a nativity scene. It really isn't hurting anyone. Look the other way for crying out lout.



Bunch a self-important busy-bodies.



TJR

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[Tom Schindler]

Speaking as someone that does not celebrate Christmas, here is what I have to deal with.



I am told to have a Merry Christmas every day during the holiday season.

I am subjected to listen to Christmas music on the radio, in the stores, and by people walking out in public.

If you tell someone that you do not celebrate Christmas, you are looked at as if you are some kind of freak.

As a child, I have been told that total stranger feels sorry for me.

I have been told I am going to hell.

I have been called names.

I have been told by employers that because I don't celebrate Christmas, I should work Christmas day for straight time and forgo any holiday pay.



I hate to say this, but if any of you guys that do celebrate Christmas lived with a society that celebrated Kwanza, or some Muslim holiday. Imagine you being told that you are abusing your child because you do not celebrate the "holiday of the masses".



Personally, nativity scenes done by a city is a waste of tax payer money. Having children in school devote a day or two to make Christmas decorations to decorate a tree is a waste of tax payers money for something that does not add to a childs education.



The words "In God we trust" on money does not bother me at all. I think it is petty to even be worried about it, but then again, I do not find it offensive. I respect those that may find it offensive.



In many cases, the last people to compromise are those that want others to.





Tom

 

[Les]

Tom, if you lived in S. Florida you probably would not have experienced any of those things, except the Christmas music.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen (Tom),



Why don't you celebrate Christmas? I know many people who aren't Christian, but they still celebrate on that day, in their own way.



If you have personal reasons, that's cool.



Those things you say you are "subjected" to are a big part of our culture. I don't enjoy or celebrate Nascar, or college football, or baseball, or rock climbing, or antique collecting, or ... you name it, but I do get exposed to those things. Sure, not as much as Christmas I suppose, but I think most everything in life is simply "a matter of degrees."



Because I feel that way (that it's all a matter of degrees) then I guess I could go off on a rant about the things I am subjected to that I don't agree with.



For example; I think unions are for the most part are crap and I don't like being subjected to their B.S., what they have done to this country, and the brainwashing of their members. That's how I feel. *BUT*, I absolutely support the right for them to exist and I recognize that others feel very strongly in favor ot them. So, as an adult secure in my convictions, I essentially look the other way and vote with my wallet and my feet when needed when it comes to unions or unionized companies. You feel strongly in favor of unions. I'm never going to tell you that you are wrong for your feelings. If there are those that do, or that make you feel bad about not celebrating Christmas, well, I think to those people you should just consider the source, stand firm in your convictions, and move on with your life.



I've discussed unions with you in the past, for example, and during those discussions I have asked questions to understand why feel the way you do, and I have challenged you to understand how I feel. But I will never tell you you are wrong, or that I feel sorry for you.



Like I said, I'm just wondering why you don't celebrate Christmas. I won't debate or even further discuss if you choose to answer. I promise. If you don't want to answer, then just feel free to say that as well. If Dec 25th is just another day for you, that's cool, regardless the reason.



TJR

 

[Mark K 2]

A few years ago in Texas, I was told "Merry Christmas" by all the store clerks. The final straw was when a gas station lady said, "Merry Christmas, honey." I said, "A. Don't assume I'm Christian, and, B) I'm not your honey." I'm Christian, BTW.



Where I'm from, store clerks don't say Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanza. They say, "Thank you. Come again."

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Mark K,



Funny. It seems that it is you that may be assuming too much.



You might find it interesting that for many saying "Merry Christmas" isn't a presumption that the person the salutation is directed is Christian, but instead, just a simple, common tiding of good joy for the season.



For many, Christmas isn't about Christianity, or Christ, but just a time of year for festivities and celebration. Some of those people say "Season's Greetings". Others say "Happy Holidays". Some say "Merry Christmas." I know the Christians aren't happy with this, but it is the way it is for many.



It would be both wise and tolerant to NOT assume that those that say Merry Christmas are labeling you "Christian". But then again, it's always a good practice to not ASSUME what someone means by their words or deeds. 'Tis better to ask them if not sure.



Oh, and any lady that wants to can call me "honey" whenever they want. But, hey, that's just me. :banana:



Whatever keeps your pocket watch wound (tightly, so it seems). :haveabeer:



Seasons' Greetings!



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

Why don't you celebrate Christmas?

Not one place in the bible is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ even mentioned. Jesus did not celebrate his own birthday. Second, the birth of Jesus was not in the winter. The bible does not give an exact date, but the bible does speak of a seoson of Christs birth.



Does one really think if Jesus did not celebrate his own birthday, he wants us to celebrate his?

Sure, not as much as Christmas I suppose, but I think most everything in life is simply "a matter of degrees."

If I turn the TV on and I see a football game, I can change the channel. I can not do that with Christmas. Every show has a Christmas special. I can not walk into a store without hearing "Merry Christmas" from everyone, or hearing the Salvation Army ringing the bell non-stop. It even bombards my inbox with all the chain mails about how Target is anti-Christmas because it will not allow the Salvation Army bell ringers on their property. (What they fail to mention is the Target will donate MILLIONS of dollars directly to The Salvation Army so their customers are not subjected to that damn "ruing, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring" all the time.



No Christian can support celebrating Christmas using only biblical support. That alone tells me that Christmas as BS. There is only one holiday that Jesus commanded us as a Christian to uphold.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



Okay, thanks.



Lots of things to discuss there, but I said I won't debate any of your reasons for not celebrating, so I will let them go.



But I will tell you why I celebrate Christmas...



I'm going to celebrate Christmas not because I'm commanded to and not because its a Christian holiday. I'm going to celebrate the holiday because its the time of the year (more than any other it seems) that I like to think the best of people, to do good things for people, and to be close to my friends, family. Its the time of the year that I try to be friendlier to those I meet. In other words, this time of year I try to spread peace and love. That's what Christmas means to me, and that's why I celebrate it.



I try to keep that same spirit all year long. But I have to admit, there is something about this time of year that reinforces those things for me...



TJR

 

[Bill V]

There is only one holiday that Jesus commanded us as a Christian to uphold.

...I have this odd feeling it ain't Secretarys' Day...



...Although to be honest, with years upon years of Catholic schooling, I'm at a loss when I try to think of a holiday which was actually commanded by Jesus. It's obviously not Easter--he couldn't have commanded it, as it didn't even exist until after he had died.



Or are you referring to him instructing to keep the sabbath holy (Sundays to most Christians)? I'm not certain that counts as a holiday per the more common definition most people on this board would use, although I guess I can see how some might consider every Sunday to be a "holiday" ("holy day").

 

[Les]

Bah, humbug...

 

[Bill V]

If I turn the TV on and I see a football game, I can change the channel. I can not do that with Christmas. Every show has a Christmas special. I can not walk into a store without hearing "Merry Christmas" from everyone, or hearing the Salvation Army ringing the bell non-stop. It even bombards my inbox with all the chain mails about how Target is anti-Christmas because it will not allow the Salvation Army bell ringers on their property. (What they fail to mention is the Target will donate MILLIONS of dollars directly to The Salvation Army so their customers are not subjected to that damn "ruing, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring" all the time.

You say that if you turn on the TV and see a football game, you can change the channel.



You can choose to do the same with Christmas.



Contrary to your claim, not every show has a Christmas special. And even among the many that do, not all are on at the same time. And even among those, you can always watch a non-Christmas episode on Tivo or Netflix or Hulu.



You can walk into a store without hearing Merry Christmas. They're called earplugs. Or you can shop online, choosing sites/merchants who don't use seasonal-based marketing.



You can put filters on your e-mail to sort out and automatically discard anything with "Christmas", "Salvation Army", etc. You'll never see them. Although I'm struck by you saying you get so many of these--I don't have any such filters, and it's been at least two years since I've gotten one of those "Target is anti-Christmas" spams.



Or you can simply come to the realization that to most people and merchants, "Merry Christmas" is not an attempt at evangelism, but a mostly-secular wish of good will, and accept it at that. Not at all saying you should--just reiterating that it's an option.

Not one place in the bible is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ even mentioned.

Huh? Not true!!! There's PLENTY of the first part of the gospels (I'm not sure if it's all four--but it's definitely more than one) dedicated to the celebration of His birth. The angels celebrated it. The shepherds celebrated it. The "wise men" (as they're known these days) celebrated it. By writing about it so much, the gospel writers celebrated it. Plenty of celebrating! I have trouble seeing how anyone can fault modern-day Christians who choose to join in that celebration.

 

[Gavin Allan]

Have a KICK ASS KWANZA! :banana::banana::banana:

 

[Mark K 2]

[Broken External Image]:

 

[Tom Schindler]

Huh? Not true!!! There's PLENTY of the first part of the gospels (I'm not sure if it's all four--but it's definitely more than one) dedicated to the celebration of His birth. The angels celebrated it. The shepherds celebrated it. The "wise men" (as they're known these days) celebrated it. By writing about it so much, the gospel writers celebrated it.

Yes, on the day he was born and nt every year since then.





Tom

 

[Les]

Bah, humbug...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen said:

Yes, on the day he was born and nt every year since then.

By that same logic I guess you celebrate the day your family members are born but don't observe subsequent birthday celebrations?



If and when you have kids, will you celebrate their birthdays? Do you celebrate the birthdays of niece's, nephew's, wife, father?



Did you ever celebrate a birthday a few days, weeks, or maybe in a month later (or earlier), maybe because the birthday person lives far away, or due to some other reason/convenience?



If so, who commands you to celebrate those birthdays, and at times other than the date of the actual birth?



:btddhorse:



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

I have never celebrated my birthday, nor the birthday of my wife, parents, sisters, brothers, or anyone else in my family.





Tom

 

[Les]

I have never celebrated my birthday, nor the birthday of my wife, parents, sisters, brothers, or anyone else in my family.

That's pretty sad...

 

[Bill V]

Huh? Not true!!! There's PLENTY of the first part of the gospels (I'm not sure if it's all four--but it's definitely more than one) dedicated to the celebration of His birth. The angels celebrated it. The shepherds celebrated it. The "wise men" (as they're known these days) celebrated it. By writing about it so much, the gospel writers celebrated it.

Yes, on the day he was born and nt every year since then.





Tom

OK, here's another approach:



In many (perhaps even most) Christian traditions, including Roman Catholicism and most Protestant donominations, the Church is considered to be the "Body of Christ". It's also referenced as such in the Bible, including 1 Corinthians 12:27--"Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." Other such references include Ephesians (4:12; 5:23) and Colossians (1:18, 24; 2:19).



And therefore, if the Church is the Body of Christ--then when the Church celebrates the birth of Christ every year, it is actually Christ who is celebrating the birth of Christ.



Every year.



In December.





Caymen--I want to be clear here: I'm not trying to say "you're wrong" here, or to attack you like those misguided people from your past who have derided you for not celebrating Christmas. Instead, I'm treating it as an interesting debate topic, nothing more. If you don't care to get any further into it, even in that type of vein, I fully respect that, and will drop it immediately--right after wishing you and your family a happy and joyous season (regardless of whether you want that season to be Christmas, Passover, Kwanzaa, or simply Winter).

 

[Tom Schindler]

And therefore, if the Church is the Body of Christ--then when the Church celebrates the birth of Christ every year, it is actually Christ who is celebrating the birth of Christ.

You are not celebrating the birth of Christ, you are celebrating the anniversary of the birth of Christ.



As a Christian, I am to be "Christ like". I want to walk the was he did and talk the way he did. There is not one record of Jesus ever celebrating the anniversary of his birth. One may say, wwell, it was just never put in the bible. Lets say it were true. If it is not important enough to go in the bible, why is it important enough for us to do this?



There is nothing sad for me not celebrating the anniversary of my birth, Les.



I have never missed out on anything by not celebrating Christmas. As a matter of fact, but the attitude of the masses in the stores at this time of year, I can say it has been a blessing.





Tom