The Law is the Law!

[Les]

There is nothing sad for me not celebrating the anniversary of my birth, Les.

Wasn't talking about your birth, but those close to you, your family. I would be happy to celebrate my parent's birthdays, if they were still alive. And I will celebrate my son's birthday, and those close to me, as long as I live. You are expecting your first child, how will this effect you current beliefs?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les,



I suspect there will be no birthday celebrations for little Caymen Jr if Tom stays consistent to form.



I hope if that happens that the little guy grows up well adjusted. Seriously.



I've known lots of well meaning parents that seem to dance to the beat of their own drum and their kids are, well, in a word: weird..



It's tough raising kids. It's even tougher when tipping at windmills and swimming upstream.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

Wasn't talking about your birth, but those close to you, your family. I would be happy to celebrate my parent's birthdays, if they were still alive. And I will celebrate my son's birthday, and those close to me, as long as I live.

There is no loss on celebrating anyones anniversary of their birthday. I spend every day with my loved ones as it may be our last. My father will be 78 in February and on the same day, my mother will be 66.

You are expecting your first child, how will this effect you current beliefs?

When we have our first child, we will celebrate the day of his/her birth, but not the anniversary of the birth.



As for us currently expecting, the embreyo, at the age of 9 weeks, stopped development and Theresa had a DNC to have it removed due to severe cramping and bleeding. It was a blow to us, but if things are not perfect, I don't want to see the baby develop any more. I already have a retarted sister. I know what my father went through. I also know the kind of life my sister has and I do not ever want my child to have that life.



Good news is that we started trying again and if anything good came out of the first pregnancy is it that we know we are ready for a child.



As I said, celebrating or not celebrating a birthday does not convey any more love for someone. I love my mother and father with everything I have. I love me wife wore than life itself. Every day is Christmas and her birthday wrapped into one. If we are in a jewlery store and she puts her eye on a piece, she gets it on the spot. If we are at a gun store and she says she likes a certain gun, she gets it. If she wants a new vehicle, it is hers. No waiting for July to come around or Christmas to get here. Whatever she wants is given to her. We go out to dinner "just because".



I am not missing out on anything nor are the ones close to me. You may actually be missing out by celebrating the anniversary of your kids birth or celebrating Christmas. But, you do what makes you happy.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



Sorry to hear about the miscarriage. Same thing happened with my wife and I during her first pregnancy. Was a huge blow. We still think back from time to time about the child and person that wasn't but that might have been, especially on the anniversary of when we found it it wasn't to be.



Most of us humans have this thing about anniversaries. As humans we perceive and give significance to time and its passage. We assign periods of times, the most significant one seeming to be a year. For most, observing yearly anniversaries of signifcant events even if in thought alone brings back emotions, thoughts, feelings, about the past, the future, and allow us to cherish the present.



You say you don't celebrate these things. I don't feel bad for you because of it. I just scratch my head and try to understand you. You say you don't celebrate. That makes me wonder if you put any significance to these types of events at all. It wouldn't be human of you if you didn't...IMHO.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

Actually I don't. A year from now, on the anniversary of the news that our baby did not make it, it will never cross my mind. Hell, I usually always forget my wedding anniversary. I like Christmas shutdown because I get to leave town during that week since I am off. My company forgo's most holidays in the year and uses them between Christmas and New Years.



Yea, I don't place much onto anniversarys of anything. Days come and days go. As long as I am above ground and have people that love me, I am happy.





Tom

 

[Gavin Allan]

Will you be happy when you are below ground?

 

[Tom Schindler]

Will you be happy when you are below ground?

I will be dead. Not really worried about it.





Tom

 

[Les]

I am not missing out on anything nor are the ones close to me.

Since you have never celebrated these events, you have no idea what you are missing.

 

[Bill V]

And therefore, if the Church is the Body of Christ--then when the Church celebrates the birth of Christ every year, it is actually Christ who is celebrating the birth of Christ.

You are not celebrating the birth of Christ, you are celebrating the anniversary of the birth of Christ.

Saying it's "celebrating the anniversary of the birth of Christ", and therefore not "celebrating the birth of Christ", is just twisting it up in semantics to avoid the point I'm making. Regardless of whether it's a celebration of His birth, or a celebration of the anniversary of His birth, the point still remains--it's a celebration. And it's a celebration being done by the Church. And since the Church is the Body of Christ, it's a celebration being done by Christ himself.



You said that, "There is not one record of Jesus ever celebrating the anniversary of his birth." I feel that this shows that Jesus (in the form of the Church) has a long history of celebrating exactly that.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Since you have never celebrated these events, you have no idea what you are missing.

I see my wife getting upset at the selfishness of her family when it comes to Christmas and birthdays. I do know what I am missing out of and glad I have no part of it.

You said that, "There is not one record of Jesus ever celebrating the anniversary of his birth." I feel that this shows that Jesus (in the form of the Church) has a long history of celebrating exactly that.

And the church is celebrating the birth of Christ as a command from Christ or is this something the church decided they wanted to do without a command from their leader?



We can go round and round with this. Frankly, I really owe none of you guys any support of my beliefs. I really don't care about what you think.



As a Christian, I can not celebrate any holiday that was not directed by Christ with a clean concience.





Tom

 

[Bill V]

And the church is celebrating the birth of Christ as a command from Christ or is this something the church decided they wanted to do without a command from their leader?

Tom, I think you're missing my point. My point is--According to many (perhaps most) Christian denominations, Christ IS the Church. The Church IS Christ. Therefore, if the Church says/does something, it is Christ who is saying/doing it. If the Church celebrates Christ's birth (or the anniversary thereof), Christ himself is doing so.



Regarding your other comments--like I said earlier, I agree that you don't owe any of us an explanation. This is just an open, respectful conversation regarding your statement that neither Jesus nor the Bible says to celebrate the anniversary of Christ's birth. It seemed like a good, interesting debate point.

As a Christian, I can not celebrate any holiday that was not directed by Christ with a clean concience.

Just curious--(And again, I'm asking this with full respect of your beliefs):

Did Christ or the Bible say anywhere that we shouldn't celebrate the anniversary of his birth, or any other holiday? If not, why take a stance against such celebration? After all, neither Jesus nor the Bible told us to make posts on internet message boards dedicated to motor vehicles, but that hasn't stopped you from doing that.

 

[Gavin Allan]

...and the Holy Ghost is your conscience.



No condeming here-- just interested in learning. Like the sales pitch in Motel Hell: "It takes all kinds of critters to make Farmer Vincent's sausage".

 

[Tom Schindler]

My point is--According to many (perhaps most) Christian denominations, Christ IS the Church. The Church IS Christ. Therefore, if the Church says/does something, it is Christ who is saying/doing it. If the Church celebrates Christ's birth (or the anniversary thereof), Christ himself is doing so.

If there is not a command from Christ, man can not just do whatever he wants with the belief that because the church is Christ. We base our faith in the bible. We use the bible to make life decisions. We base the bible to know what the future holds. If Jesus did not command us to do something, then we shouldn't do it.

Did Christ or the Bible say anywhere that we shouldn't celebrate the anniversary of his birth, or any other holiday? If not, why take a stance against such celebration? After all, neither Jesus nor the Bible told us to make posts on internet message boards dedicated to motor vehicles, but that hasn't stopped you from doing that.

Seriously? God gave us the ability to use our mind to create the things we have today. You can not compare the two.



Jesus gave his followers one command. Sad thing is that too many Christians are unable to follow that command but think it is OK to make up too many other things. The greatest worship and honor we could give to Jesus and his father is to follow that one commandment.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



This whole "Christ commands" this and doesn't command that line of thinking seems pretty pointless to me.



The Bible is certainly not a 100% clear instruction manual on how to run ones life. It has contradictions, errors, and no doubt ommissions (those that believe it to be inerrant have issue with this). Still, different Christian religions have taken that book and picked and choosed from it to make their own religous dogma...and some have simply created dogma seemingly out of thin air.



The Old Testament is essentially the Hebrew bible. Most "born again" Christians ignore much of the OT instructions (for example, they eat pork, are not kosher, etc) and focus on the New Testament. Catholics have saints and pray to them. That would be blasphemy for many other Christians. See how that one book and its commands mean different things to different sects? Which are right? Which are wrong? Who really cares, I ask?



My point is, that if one gets into a pi$$ing contest of "the Bible says this" or "the Bible doesn't say that" as a reason for why they do, or don't do something in their life, well, then, I suspect it's kinda pointless. The Bible is not a 100% clear instruction book for ones life...and if it is, then there is NO ONE ALIVE, NOR HAS THERE EVER BEEN that is truly living it (except maybe Jesus, but then even he doubted his father...).



For example, I really suspect I am NOT supposed to kill someone for working on the sabbath...but the Bible clearly instructs me to.



TJR

 

[Gavin Allan]

Jesus gave his followers one command. Sad thing is that too many Christians are unable to follow that command but think it is OK to make up too many other things. The greatest worship and honor we could give to Jesus and his father is to follow that one commandment.

+ 1 for Caymen.



That one left a pretty big mark.

 

[Tom Schindler]

For example, I really suspect I am NOT supposed to kill someone for working on the sabbath...but the Bible clearly instructs me to.

That was under the Mosaic Law. Give me a break.



The Old Testament outlined the begining of man, the original sin, and from what blood line, Christ would appear. The New Testament covers the life of Christ and his miracles, his persecution, his execution, and his resurection. The New Testament also covers letters from the disciple to the early congragations and finally signs of the end of the times and the vindication of Gods name as the supreme being.





Tom

 

[Bill V]

If there is not a command from Christ, man can not just do whatever he wants with the belief that because the church is Christ. We base our faith in the bible.

If I'm understanding correctly what you were trying to say there (and I'm not sure that I am), I think you're saying that our instructions from Christ are handed down through the Bible, not through the Church.



If that's the case:



Who do you think it was that determined what the content of the Bible is? It was the Church! The books that are or aren't included in the Bible are the result of their input.



The Bible is a subset of the Church--not the other way around.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen, regarding "give me a break" and the OT, the OT of the KJ bible was shaped from the hebrew bible to bridge to the NT and prophecize about Jesus.



The hebrew bible didn't have that stuff. The OT has become a long prelude for most Cristians today.



My point, and you either missed or ignored it, is that the bible is supposedly the "word of God", and you say it has commands within. We all piock and choose the ones we follow.



We each have to choose how much sin we will accept. (Quote from HBO's Boardwalk Empire).



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

TJR,



I said you quote of killing a man for working on the sabbith is out of the OT. That was under to Mosaic Law and Christians are not bound to the Mosaic law.



I don't know what you are trying to get at.

I think you're saying that our instructions from Christ are handed down through the Bible, not through the Church.

That is correct. The Bible has the info we need and Gods Holy Spirit gives us the ability to understand what it is saying. Too many Churches use the boble for evil and decietful things, so to say the Church is handing things down through the Church is over simplification.



There are many churches out there that support Polygamy, homosexuality, pre-marital sex, no sex during marriage, etc. These are churches that wear the Christian name. Christ decides that this one church should allow open homosexuality while the other one strictly forbids it?





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



14Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.



Exodus 31, 14-15





Like I said...the Bible is clearly NOT an unambiguous instruction guide because we all pick and choose from it. For that reason, basing an argument on what the Bible commands or doesn't bears little teeth.



TJR