Toyota Faux Pas

[EddieS'04]

To throw my 2cents in. In all my years of tinkering. Mechanical linkages were the one that got stuck. Not Cables.



Generaly they stuck from. Long term wear and broken return springs. Cables usualy broke and left you with no throtle. That is not to say some didnt stick. The cables I knew to stick. Were early years of TB FI. Manufactors went to wound return springs on the TB. Some broke in early Years.



Carburated motors with mechanical linkage. Had a return on the linkage. Also a wound spring on the throtle plate shaft. Not intended as back up though. Cables on carburators had return springs on the cable sheath. Broken cables were sometimes the problem, not sticking.



Sorry for my boring, personal history opinion. I agree with Caymen, give me the control. Some things should stay with the drivers input.



My other worry is that some cars are coming with electronic brake assist.



As an retired proccess control instrument tech. Electronics gave more acurate control and feed back info. In many cases not better durability. In some cases higher replacment rates on electronics vs mechanical pnuematics.



My opinion on the comercial. It was said to be purposely misleading. A play on words for damage control.

 

[Richard L]

Electronic controls are with us and will stay with us. While most aircraft use hydraulic controls many use electronic controls to control the hydraulics and even newer designs us full electronics to control the flight control surfaces.



Of course all aircraft use some form of redundant controls to prevent a catesrtophic crash because of the failure of one component.



I think this Toyota sticking throttle will eventually envolve some sort of redundant failsafe systems for any electronicly controled safety device like throttle, brakes, steering, etc. I think and electronic sensor that detects someone is pressing on the brakes and the engine is reving would shut the engine off or at least electronicly close the throttle. Perhaps even a panic button on the dash or steering wheel that just shuts everything off if the driver perceives a loss of control of any system on the vehicle.



Yes, we will pay more for these redundant/smarter systems but that will also induce auto makers to come up with some very creative, cost effective solutions.



In the end, no system is 100% fool proof. and we will always have accidents caused by equipment failure. But remember that most accidents are caused by "The Nut behind the wheel". :banghead:



...Rich

 

[Tom Schindler]

My ultimate question is this.



Why make it more complex than it has to be. Yes, we understand that aircraft has electronic controls to control flight. We are not in aircraft. We do not travel at Mach 2 on the interstate. This is a car for crying out loud! We still travel at 65 to 75 MPH on the interstate. Same as we did years ago.



We do not have "cutting edge" designs like aircraft do.



KISS is the key. Keep it simple so cars can be cheap. We are going to end up with more retards on the road than we already have.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



I suspect no one is ever going to convince you that more control systems, more electronics, and more safety measures between the driver and the steering, braking and acceleration systems are ever a "good idea."



I know you don't think that...I know that you want the least amount of automation between the driver and the machine.



I suspect you prefer manual transmission over automatic; right?



How do you feel about (just indicate LIKE, DISLIKE):



- Power steering?



- Power brakes?



- cruise control?



- ABS?



- Backup sensors?



- Collission detection systems?



- Parallel parking assist?



Do you DISLIKE all of the above, or are some of them okay?



I'm genuinely interested in your responses.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

I suspect you prefer manual transmission over automatic; right?

Car, yes. Truck, no. Automatic trannys are better for towing than manual ones are.



- Power steering? Small car...not needed. Large Car, yes.



- Power brakes? I think well done brakes on a smaller vehicle would be OK without power assist, but power assist does not control you.



- cruise control? Yes, but none of that sensor that backs off the throttle crap.



- ABS? No



- Backup sensors? Not really. It would be nice, but I know the limits of my vehicles and I have mirrors.



- Collission detection systems? No



- Parallel parking assist? Hell no! Makes parking easier for me because I know how to parallel park.



When I was 16, my job was to drive the family on vacation. The vehicle was a 1986 Coachman Classic Class C 26' sitting on an E350 chassis with a 460 under the hood. No rear window. No back-up camera. Just one mirror on each side of the road.



That vehicle COULD NOT be driven without power steering or power brakes.



Some cases, certain things are needed. In others, they do nothing but cost us money.



I do not need air bags. I do not need ABS. I do not need Hill Hold Assist. I do not need stability control. I do not need crash detection. I do not need back up sensors.



I do need a throttle that works when I push the throttle. If I need to get the f out of dodge, I don't want the throttle to give me 30% when I need 100%. If I wanted 30%, I would have given it 30%.





Tom

 

[Richard L]

Most all vehicles sold today have the list of technological devices as standard equipment.



I don't know if you can even buy a new vehicle that does not have Power Brakes and Power Steering as standard equipment. All cars have airbags, most cars have ABS and automatic transmissions and only a few offer manual trans. Most cars are equiped with power windows and door locks, electric rear window defogers. and power heated seats and mirrors is growing more popular.



So we as the vehicle buying public like these safety and convenience features and the technology. We also know that anything that man makes is subject to fail.



If an item that fails cost someone their life does it matter if it's in an airplane, a car or city bus? If it can fail and cause a safety issue, it should have a redundant backup system. To have a redundant system usually requires electronics.



Mechanical linkage can stick, so how do you make it stick proof? You can't. So how do you make it with a redundant backup system? I don't know? Perhaps install another set of mechanical linkage? But I don't think that would be a viable solution.



It is usually more cost effective, smaller, and lighter weight to use some sort of electonic controls and a redundant electronic control. And dispite the complexity of modern electronics, they have been proven to be far more reliable than nearly anyother technology available. The chances of two redundant electronic systems failing at the same time are almost nil.



...Rich

 

[gary s]

tom,



no abs, stability control or airbags for you ?



is it because you dont care for you or your family's life or that you are such a professional driver, that these significant saftey items are not needed ?



it's called technology for the better.

 

[Tom Schindler]

it's called technology for the better.

I call it dumbing down the heard. The more we rely on gadgets to think for us, the more we find ourselves unable to think.



How many people can do long handed very complex math on a sheet of paper? Oh, that's right. We don't need to know that, we have calculators.





Tom

 

[Tom Schindler]

I love this quote...

If you make something "idiot proof" then only an idiot will want to use it.

That pretty much explains why drivers are getting dumber.



Just heard on the news. Toyota owners complaining about acceleration issues AFTER the recall has been performed.



That is scary!





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen said:

I call it dumbing down the heard. The more we rely on gadgets to think for us, the more we find ourselves unable to think.



How many people can do long handed very complex math on a sheet of paper? Oh, that's right. We don't need to know that, we have calculators.

I agree...



But, Caymen, do you regularly use spellcheck? Did you use it on that last post?



See my point? Not all technology is bad. It has been assisting us fallible, fragile, weak humans since the first caveman picked up a stick and used it to flip a rock over to look for grubs.



:haveabeer:



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

But, Caymen, do you regularly use spellcheck? Did you use it on that last post?

No, I do not usually use Spellcheck. The post in question was done in Windows 7 and IE. No spell check on it. The previous few weeks, I was in Ubuntu using Firefox with Spell Check. The red line when I spell an American English word wrong because Aluminum should be Aluminium and Color should be Colour.



I live in the USA and I will spell it the USA way.





Tom

 

[Kevin Lang]

I call it dumbing down the heard. The more we rely on gadgets to think for us, the more we find ourselves unable to think.



How many people can do long handed very complex math on a sheet of paper? Oh, that's right. We don't need to know that, we have calculators.

So true. There are a great deal of people who cannot drive without their GPS turn-by-turn navigation. Reading a map is too hard, like your mentioned hand math calculations. When DMV tests finally require on-road testing, they should include map reading and navigation. If they made all current license holders retest under those conditions, there would be less than half the number of drivers on the road as there are now, I wager.



I add that many people cannot do even simple math without a calculator, let alone complex math. Recently one of my friends had to use his cellphone's tip calculator to calculate a 15% tip on 50 bucks. He was promptly administered a smack upside the head to jog the mind :banana:



As a driving enthusiast I want a car that I actually drive, not a living room on wheels which is one step away from driving itself ala Minority Report/I Robot. Though I understand that more cars are sold when they cater to the masses, who are not driving enthusiasts.



Though if I could pick 2 things to remove from the roads, one would be GPS navigation, and the other wouldn't be a driving related tech at all, the flocks of bikers who clog the roads because they refuse to ride in shoulders nor on bike trails...and wear male spandex

 

[Richard L]

Caymen,

Dumbing down the heard? I think you mean: "Dumbing down the herd".



I too agree that we have come to rely on technology to the point that some people feel they are no longer required to think or use their brain for anything. But man has gotten a lot smarter through technology, especially computers.



It has been said many time before but is worth repeating: "90% of all the knowledge mankind has aquired since our existence on Earth as been acquired since 1960", That year was the dawning of the modern computer age.



The reason why motor vehicles have the tecnnology is to make the task of driving simpler and easier for a wider range of people. Technology inovations in cars has allowed us to concentrate on our driving and less on operational distractions. Technology makes our vehicles easier to steer, to stop, to see better, to know our cars are operating properly without the need to constantly check gauges, etc.



Technology has also created a number of serious distractions to our driving, like operating Cell phones, texting, MP3 players, navigation systems, and even the radio can cause distraction the lead to accidents. Tbat's where man's logic and common sense have to kick in, and unfortuantely, some people don't have much of that.



If we have a technology that can cause a serious injury or death if it should fail, we need fail-safe system, or a redundant backup system to take over.



To prevent unintended acceleration incidents, what is wrong with having a sensor that detects the driver applying the brakes while the vehicle is accelerating or the engine is reving, and simply shutting the throttle electronicly and then storing a CEL code and turning on the CEL light. That may seem complicated to you but to electronic engineers that is pretty easy to do You cannot make mechanical throttle linkage do that without electronics.



...Rich

 

[Kevin Lang]

RL, that would effectively castrate a car for Drivers.



No power braking, no heel-and-toe flamboyance on a manual transmission...



Drivers would call diverting attention to an "operational distraction" driving.



You say that technology that can cause death if it "fails" should be tempered with a fail-safe? The ultimate level of technology in our discussion that meets those requirements is the car itself, which will "fail" and cause death and destruction when its driver fails to concentrate. Unless we have self-driving cars, there can be no fail-safe.



Point being that you're calling for measures to fix common sense, as the toyota deaths and injuries could have been prevented with driver response.

"90% of all the knowledge mankind has aquired since our existence on Earth as been acquired since 1960"

I've never heard this before. I'm sure it is false.

 

[Bud Williams]

The red line when I spell an American English word wrong because Aluminum should be Aluminium and Color should be Colour.

Don't like the spelling of Colour, seems too artsy or feminen...as for Aluminium sounds more scientific but I still like the commerical usage of this word....





[Broken External Image]:



[Broken External Image]:

 

[Kevin Lang]

Tyre, Favour, Flavour, Froward....so many English spellings, so little time.



I thought the brits and their associates (Indians, Australians, etc) were just nuts with pronounciation, eg "Left-tenant" for lieutenent, but then I learned that, as ya'll pointed out, that the derivative of Bauxite is actually spelled Aluminium, so they were pronouncing it correctly (for once) and we weren't.



Same with "Ar-GOO" for "argue" and "Mah-tour" for "mature" and "Ah-dool-tuh" for "Adult".



I'll take my "Colonial" dialect over the prissy effeminant, though literary, Bri'ish words. :banana:

 

[Richard L]

KL,

that would effectively castrate a car for Drivers.

No power braking, no heel-and-toe flamboyance on a manual transmission...

Perhaps people who drive like that should be castrated?? Or better yet, have a sensor detect a driver doing that and jam the throttle all the way to the floor, deactivate the brakes, lock ignition switch, the gearshif, and the steering.



You are begining to sound like Caymen. Talking about race car driving techneques on the street when everybody else is talking about SAFETY defects. Attempting to wring out every ounce of performance while driving on public streets should not not even be mentioned in the same sentance with SAFETY. That is a very immature thought process and leads to more accidents and deaths than does all the Safety recalls in history!



If a driver feels that he cannot drive a car down a public highway without Heel-toe braking, or trying to break a track record getting to the local 7-11 for a loaf of breas, is himself a safety defect! In that case the safety defect is "The Nut Behind the Wheel".



But there is and electronic fix for that too. It begins with a computer at the DMV and it's used to suspend or revoke his license. Then another computer can be used to cancel his Insurance and his vehicle registration. If that does not work the backup would be Jail time.



As for you never hearing the statement "90% of all the knowledge mankind has aquired since our existence on Earth as been acquired since 1960" ...Who cares! I'm sure others have heard it since it's been going around for about 20 years. Perhaps you are too young to remember back that far or you did not read it on the Internet so you're sure it must be false?



...Rich

 

[Kevin Lang]

RL, we're stating that we do not want to sacrifice Liberty for Security. Especially when we're paying for it.



I believe a certain Ben Franklin echoed those sentiments.

Perhaps people who drive like that should be castrated?? Or better yet, have a sensor detect a driver doing that and jam the throttle all the way to the floor, deactivate the brakes, lock ignition switch, the gearshif, and the steering.

A) The government shouldn't have the ability to castrate. Eugenics went out of practice after Hitler gave it a bad name.



B)Castration won't stop female Drivers.



c) If you want safety, you shouldn't advocate a car turning into a Kamikaze missile, because it will kill someone uninvolved. Probably leave the driver of the car alive, kinda like an inner-city drive-by. It kills everyone but the intended target.

you did not read it on the Internet so you're sure it must be false?

RL, I just told you that the first time I saw that quote WAS reading it on the Internet, in your post, and I'm sure it is false. So what are you trying to say here?



Exactly.

 

[Richard L]

KL,

A) The government shouldn't have the ability to castrate. Eugenics went out of practice after Hitler gave it a bad name.



B)Castration won't stop female Drivers.



c) If you want safety, you shouldn't advocate a car turning into a Kamikaze missile, because it will kill someone uninvolved. Probably leave the driver of the car alive, kinda like an inner-city drive-by. It kills everyone but the intended target.

Did you not understand that I was being facicious in my statements ?? I'm sure you did, but prefer to be petty.

I just told you that the first time I saw that quote WAS reading it on the Internet, in your post, and I'm sure it is false. So what are you trying to say here?

You did not say you saw it on the internet. In fact you said you never heard it before. Here is your exact quote:

I've never heard this before. I'm sure it is false.

KL, you are starting to lie as much as Caymen and then trying to change the subject.



My whole point was that you cannot have 100% SAFE vehicles when there unsafe drivers out there. Driving in traffic like you are on a race track is assinine. If you don't like the safety restriction or limits put on vehicles by the manufacturers, and you don't like paying for them, then don't but a car. It seems to me that we would all be safer if the race car driver wanna-be's were taken off the road.



I don't care about your freedom to drive like an idiot on the public roads , but that infringes on the rights of my family and other drivers not to be exposed to your idea of performance driving! America has plenty of race tracks for that kind of driving, but even they will require you follow some safety rules.... Like helmuts, roll cages, fuel cells, cut off switches, removal of glass, etc....So you see, you don't really have the freedom to do anything you want now, and there are good reasons for that....and it appears to be people like you !





...Rich

 

[Tom Schindler]

KL, you are starting to lie as much as Caymen and then trying to change the subject.

We are both running a close second to you. Kiss off jerk!!!





Tom