Who said we are not

[Kevin Lang]

I know we're not supposed to "feed the trolls", but Frank, what you just said is what Hugh's post shoots down. He asserts that the intent of the wording of the 1st Amendment was only to protect the varying sects of Christianity from persecution. I don't see how your retort, which distills down to: "you're wrong because the first amendment says 'freedom of religion'" works. When we're discussing the intent of something written, how does quoting the vague language prove anything?



It looks to me that Redfish has a more poignant rebuttal. I like Jefferson, really I do, but he had a lot of half-baked ideas. From his architecture at Monticello to his Presidency (cough embargo cough) to his death as a pauper, there are examples aplenty. I understand where he was coming from with his "Yeoman Farmer" ideal for the American Citizen. He wanted to preserve the "pluck", tenacity, and independent thought of each Citizen as a Yeoman Farmer stereotypically embodies, but the way it was presented to me it seems that he wanted to preserve free-thinking Americans by having all Americans literally be Yeoman Farmers. Pretty impractical. Additionally he's the "go-to guy" for quotes with "weight of authority" for Anarchists, Atheists, and seemingly all who question government and Christianity. He's become a Sophist after death: people use his words to convince people of their cause one day, and then the next a group opposed to the first uses his words in a compelling counter-argument. :banghead:



...I like "Hindoo" more than "Hindu", personally :bwahaha:



That said, I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion Jefferson draws. Simply because "Jesus Christ" was omitted doesn't automatically mean that the Founding Fathers meant to offer up religious freedom to any and all non-Christians. Maybe they decided against the language but kept the intent, as Hugh says? Maybe they left it out to include the Jews, but not Muslims? I think we need more than just the evidence in that quote to go on.



I'm not sure what writings from the Founding Fathers that I should be reading. Musings of our Founding Fathers don't seem to stock the shelves of any library or university near me.

 

[H D]

Some of the ones I've read were not even published in books for some stupid reason, or to my knowledge were not. Many of them are from less glamorous names than the ones taught to third graders and spewed about by those so certain they have it all figured out. I was particularly interested in those in the state of Georgia, not necessarily Declaration of Independence signers but those who were alive and influential at the time. Sorry but no names are coming to me at this hour but I'll try to come back with some Saturday if I remember. I had to read them on microfilm sometimes. Those require supervised reading and signing in and out with nothing taken in with you except a pencil and notebook and nothing besides those things leave with you. At UGA, the special collections are in the basement floor and the very top

two floors of the main library.

 

[H D]

Oh, and none of that was intended toward you Redfish. Good post and an interesting point. Thanks fire an intelligent point.



Frank, I assume the satirical misspellings were to insinuate your greater intelligence. I have a bachelors degree in political science with a focus on constitutional scholarshirp and policy analysis as well as a minor in history. I also took numerous courses on the three Abrahamic religions as well as three boring philosophy courses in which professors tried their best to argue against reason and claim there is no God. I'm also working on a Masters in Public Administration while working full time. Please share your credentials so I can be further ridiculed by your superior expertise on such matters.

 

[H D]

Oh, and none of that was intended toward you Redfish. Good post and an interesting point. Thanks fire an intelligent point.



Frank, I assume the satirical misspellings were to insinuate your greater intelligence. I have a bachelors degree in political science with a focus on constitutional scholarshirp and policy analysis as well as a minor in history. I also took numerous courses on the three Abrahamic religions as well as three boring philosophy courses in which professors tried their best to argue against reason and claim there is no God. I'm also working on a Masters in Public Administration while working full time. Please share your credentials so I can be further ridiculed by your superior expertise on such matters.

 

[Robert Thomas]

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

The problem arises when someone starts to pick you pocket.

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

Good reading I guess.. Ya know, if the US WERE a Christian Nation founded on Christianity. (which it aint) then why did they teach us in grammar school about the "great melting pot"? Why were we taught about America being the beacon of hope for GENERATIONS to emigrate here for the specific reason of escaping religious persuction to live and worship here (if you want). the god of your choice?



I think there is a snag in a certain cross section of the American populaces grasp of reality. I do understand how strongly one holds on to ones beliefs. Especially if a person has been brought up and told things over and over again by the people they trust the most. Sadly, it doesnt mean that the info is accurate. For example, I see this with our President now. Some see him (inaccurately) as a Muslim, Socialist, Kenyan. The truth is, that a black, union friendly, northerner is sooo different for many, that it TRULY scares people who see this as a threat to thier "tradional" idea of a leader. Racism aside, it is easy to see how this makes some people nervous. But it doesnt change the fact that minds must open, country moves FORWARD, and we all catch up to the way most modern industrial nations think. Obama aint takin' yer guns away neither y'all.

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

Anyway, the Church-State thing is constantly under attack from some of these same folks who would gladly take our country back in time to a bygone era. Thruth is, times WERE simpler then, but its a basic case of denial. Evolve. Move forward. And be part of the solution. Not the problem. Hugh, congrats on your LIBERAL Arts degree. I think you are educated enough to realize that I have one hanging on my wall also. Too bad we cant someday sit down and crack open a cold Old Style some time and figure it all out. Someday. Lol

 

[Oldtimer]

I'll bet if Osama Bin Ladin or how ever his name was spelled had been able to hide inside some peoples heads no one would have ever been able to get through to him



Jim

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

Say wha?

 

[Kevin Lang]

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Too bad those words are generally followed by action that do "pick my pocket" or "[break] my leg". Especially when the speaker is a practitioner of islam.

Ya know, if the US WERE a Christian Nation founded on Christianity. (which it aint) then why did they teach us in grammar school about the "great melting pot"? Why were we taught about America being the beacon of hope for GENERATIONS to emigrate here for the specific reason of escaping religious persuction to live and worship here (if you want). the god of your choice?

That doesn't rule out that the US was founded upon Christianity. It only establishes that the current government seeks to establish that the US no longer is, and they do that by indoctrinating us starting at an early age. I only encountered this line of indoctrination in public schooling.

A general State education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly like one another, and the mold in which it casts them is that which pleases the predominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, a priesthood, an aristocracy, or the majority of the existing generation.

--John Stuart Mill



(A guy that Frank should be able to support, humorously)

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

Yeah ok public schooling is for indoctrinating youth. Nice extremist view. Aliens are gonna rebuild the pyramids on Dec 23 too

 

[Bill V]

Yep, it's clearly an election year here on mysporttrac.com. Happens every two years on this site. The Franks go loony off the deep end to the left, and the Eddies, KLs, and Hughs go loony off the deep end to the right.



It's why I've long wished that the site would establish two "Off-Topic" boards--one for the "normal" stuff that typically is posted here during odd-numbered years and the first half of even-numbered years, and another for this drivel that typically shows up the second half of even-numbered years, and polutes things to the point where it culls the number of regular visitors to the site.



Might be time for another longer-term vacation from the site... :cry:

 

[H D]

I'm much more left than one might think. I'm all for a secular government as I believe it serves the greatest amount of people best in that manner. I haven't espoused any far right views at all in this thread. I challenge anyone to read through them and point out where if you think I have. The thread is about the founding of or nation on Christian principles. That's not a left our right thing, its objective knowledge of US history.

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

Yeah Bill. Freedom of choice!! You can choose not to click on the off topic board. Although you still will I am willing to bet. Lunacy!

 

[Kevin Lang]

But is there anything leftist about Christianity? I would say that there is very little. The Bible says that I am my brother's keeper, not the federal government. I should volunteer assistance to my fellow man as I see fit, per that. I shouldn't be compelled to do so, in an obfuscated manner, by the federal government. God says I should, but Washington says I must, and they'll get ugly if I don't. Big difference.



Bill V, are you okay with the sorry state of state-run education, a system that throws math and history under the bus? Are you okay with our government trying to pass off the prevailing opinion of "the people" as fact at the Capitol? It's slightly off topic, but this is the place for that. I don't intend this as a Colbert report-styled loaded question



I would like my historical sites to leave the propaganda out of their historical presentations. "Just the facts".



While it's not conclusive proof of anything, I did find it interesting that a bulk of players couldn't name Concord as a revolutionary war battle site when they were tasked to complete the phrase "Lexington and _", despite being told that the word sought was the name of a revolutionary war battle, at a trivia game I attended on Tuesday night. Yet another travesty I attribute to public school teaching beliefs and behaviors instead of facts.

 

[Bill V]

Frank, if I want to participate in any of the non-political, non-religious threads on this board, then no, I do not have the choice to not click on the off-topic board.

 

[Kevin Lang]

So you're here because you want to be. If you don't want to participate in political threads that aren't simply echo chambers for your political beliefs, then you can abstain right now, instead of requesting that such threads be banished to some third forum. I don't think that you wish to abstain. You posted here, a post that implies that you knew what kind of thread you were posting in. What's the story there?

 

[H D]

Apathy is more dangerous than being wrong.

 

[EddieS'04]

Well I kove to be LOONY, instead of wrong.

It is the government and the liberal left and others, that started the attacks on Christians, wanting to be involved in politics.

It has gotten worse with Obama.



Example: He cancels the national day of prayer at the White House. Then he turns around and invites thousnds of muslims to meet there for prayer. This is our head man playing favorites, with religion. The one political leader that should know better.



IMO, Christianity is under attack by the government. Not the other way around. Any time one of our politicians proffess their belief in Jesus. The others and the media and the non-beleiving public make some kind of crap out of it.



If you have watched some of the media video's when muslim groups meet publicly. Some get so out of hand. Even to the point of breaching the peace. Including asaults. The cops wont shut it down. Or make any arrest, that they should. There has been case after case of Christian being arrested at gatherings. All because the Cop thought he new the law. 99% of those case get thrown out of court. Or the DA finds that no law was broken.



Christians are not trying to take over the government. But we are getting fed up with being put down. And points of intrest that are good for the whole nation, are ignored. Or slamed because it come out of the mouth of a Christian. When the same Idea comes from elsewhere. The public intrest is WOW! thats a great good Idea. A moderate new testament Christian knows that God allows choices. That politcaly under our constition, Choice in many areas, should be allowed.

But the movement being carried out buy some. Want to drive Christanty underground.



I wont point counter point what I have said, IM right.

What many, including some Christians dont understand. There is more freedom, physicaly, mentaly, spiritual and life in general in Christianity. Than most of the crapy laws we live under. Many of those laws and excutive orders. If realy pushed upon us, bind us into slavery to the government. Freedom in this country is becoming an illusion.

 

[Robert Thomas]

Well I love to be LOONY, instead of wrong

I prefer "I am right 98% of the time, the other 3% I don't worry about"

Freedom in this country is becoming an illusion

Four more years and you will be able to remove "becoming".



Anyone taking offense to any "In God We Trust" money they have. Just send it to me. I will gladly send you a check with no such writings.



:banana::banana: