Handgun questions

[Gary Kong]

Yea, I, too, started out in the revolver era. Some of my same era colleagues still cling to the past, wearing their hogleg revolvers in drop leg or swivel leather...kids at the academy point and stare...until they see these guys at the range putting those big 357 or 41 magnum rounds downrange. Of course, to meet dept. regs, they carry some sort of small semi, usually a baby Glock, as s secondary weapon. They like that "old, salty veteran cop" look.



My close buddy who is now retired is a gunsmith and instructor. He has every gun known to man. His retired cop carry gun is one of those alloy framed .38 snubbies. While a revolver may have a slightly wider dimension than some small semis, they seem to make more super lightweight revolvers...so it is sort of a weight vs. width tradeoff. For me, lighter weight wins. He has also tried every holster known to man. His every day rig is a front pocket, strong side holster. No need for a belt or a cover jacket, the holster doesn't "print" the gun in his pants and it is actually a pretty convenient draw. "Hey man, gimme' your wallet or I'll cut you up."

"Sure thing, just let me get it out of my pocket for you, please don't hurt me." BANG. My buddy's build is such that wearing jeans or casual pants leaves enough room in the front right pocket to fit the rig without discomfort or problems with access. Skintight slacks would be a problem.



For ammo, ask your CCW instructor what he/she recommends. Then document it. IF it comes up why you shot someone with a particular round, you can say you went on the advice of your instructor. For me, I use dept. issue ammo on and off duty, then I can clearly defend its use in a shooting instead of tap dancing on the stand about why I chose Ludicrous Loads Hyper Lightspeed bullets. I'm and old fashioned shooter, if it was up to me for a CCW load, I'd use factory lead round nose or semi wad cutter rounds. In close up shooting with medium velocities, etc. hollow points don't often open up. Again, its also about that courtroom tap dance. You are essentially using a cowboy era bullet, nothing hi tech.



On handgun prices. Buy the best you can afford, stick to an established brand. Buy American if you can. Guns last forever, and tend to be handed down through generations. I once carried my grandfather's Smith and Wesson model 15 as a duty gun for good luck. The lighter guns cost more than the standard counterparts made with conventional gun metals, but light is nice.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

It's funny...Tom is now talking like a gangster, "packing heat", "a lot of green", etc. I've never heard this type of language from Tom before.



I have lived in a lot of dangerous places in my life, and never felt the need to own a weapon. Of course, being in the military I know how to handle an M-16, but that is the only weapon I ever plan to carry and that is for work only.



I am not referring to anyone here in this thread, but there are a lot of guys who think it makes them a man to own a gun. Take the guns away from most gangsters and they are just a weak and scared punk.



I can understand folks that buy guns to shoot as a hobby. My dad used to shoot at targets when I was a boy. As a Navy Seal, he was not a coward and didn't have a gun for personal protection. Likewise, if I ever decide that I need a gun to protect myself, then I hope someone will put a bullet in my head. I could not go through life as a coward, fearing that some unknown danger lurks behind ever corner. I'd rather die as a man, than live as a coward.

 

[Gavin Allan]

Eltee:



Have you ever had to fire your weapon for protection? What was the result-- injury or kill? Did you ever wish you had done something different?



Thanks for sharing. Your comments make some sense. I am interested in CCW, but I am also very concerned about safety/ accidental firings.



Also, what about holsters for us more "heavy-set" folks?

 

[Rich Stern]

I can understand folks that buy guns to shoot as a hobby. My dad used to shoot at targets when I was a boy. As a Navy Seal, he was not a coward and didn't have a gun for personal protection. Likewise, if I ever decide that I need a gun to protect myself, then I hope someone will put a bullet in my head. I could not go through life as a coward, fearing that some unknown danger lurks behind ever corner. I'd rather die as a man, than live as a coward.

Perhaps the dumbest thing you've ever written here.



Some famous cowards:



Thomas Jefferson

"Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."



"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people...that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed"



John Adams

"Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not only of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps, I could not surrender if I would."



Patrick Henry

"The great object is, that every man be armed....Every one who is able may have a gun."



Ronald Reagan

"Mightn't it be better in those areas of high crime to arm the homeowner and the shopkeeper, teach him how to use his weapons and put the word out to the underworld that it is no longer totally safe to rob and murder?"





Three people in my life have been the victims of violent crimes. In all three cases, they were unarmed when attacked. Two lost their lives. The third was sexually assaulted.



I'd rather they would have been armed and unharmed. You might call them cowards for arming themselves. I find no nobility in their violent, defenseless victimization.



On the other hand, one of my "gun buddies" shot and killed a crazed, knife-wielding man who was in the process of stabbing his girlfriend in a restaurant. He was credited with saving her life (she needed 10 hours of surgery) and the lives of three other people in the restaurant.



How cowardly do you feel he was because he chose to arm himself that otherwise typical day in his life?

 

[Nelson Atwell]

A wise person wrote this a few years ago when he founded this site:

Please treat all contributors with respect.

Today he wrote this:

Perhaps the dumbest thing you've ever written here.

I did not disrespect anyone in my post personally. Also, there are situations where things are not so black and white. Are you telling me it was necessary for your friend to shoot the knife-wielding offender? Couldn't he have also over-powered and disarmed himr? That might have involved some personal risk to himself, but then there has got to be some risk in life.



We are all becoming too risk adverse in this country. We even have remote-controlled planes bombing enemy targets. Perhaps cowardly is too strong a word, but whatever it is, it isn't bravery.

 

[TomT]

Over-power him? Hell, I'd have emptied my whole clip into the SOB. Nothing cowardly about taking out someone like that. In my mind he was a hero.

I know were your coming from Nelson. It's a shame we have to live in a society where we constantly feel threatened but if we were to punish criminals correctly instead of just slapping their hand and letting them back out on the streets then perhaps we would not feel the need to be armed. Until drastic changes are made in our justice system, I have no problem with law-abiding people carrying guns.

 

[Gavin Allan]

Don't forget we also need to stop making criminals too. Seems all that some folks are good at is making babies. I'm all for mandatory sterilization before allowing them to go on the dole.

 

[KentheREALone Z]

Tom;

MAJOR RESPONSIBILITY!

Become prepared and stay prepared if you take this route. You MUST NOT TAKE A DECISION SUCH AS THIS LIGHTLY.

You need EXPERT advice, not mouse jockeys on the internet.

There are many opinions here, mine included, but you need to face-to-face, maybe your Police Chief, Sheriff, Pastor, someone you have deep respect and admiration for. There's good advice in here, but ther's also junk.

If you're gonna prepare to shoot, then prepare, and practice, often, and don't stop, or don't carry. Poor preparation can put you in a world of serious hurt, for the rest of your life. CCW may wind up being a life altering event, think about it. Don't be a mouse jockey cowboy.

 

[Rich Stern]

Nelson, perhaps you've been in Poland too long and are forgetting how the English language works:



What you wrote was dumb. I am criticizing your opinion. I did not state that you are dumb. Understand the difference?



On the other hand, your choice of words strongly infers that you consider anyone who carries a gun for self-protection a coward. For emphasis, I will repeat: That's an incredibly dumb opinion.



Regarding my friend who killed the knife-wielding maniac. He and another patron tried to subdue the man physically at first, but the guy was big, and covered in sweat and blood. The floor was slick with blood. They were lucky they didn't get cut. The man stopped the attack when he lost the grip on his knife. He left the premises, came back within two minues, with yet another knife, and advanced on them while they were trying to help the woman who was bleeding to death on the floor. He was ordered at gunpoint to stop. He continued to advance. That's when he was shot.



Anyway, the point is, random violence happens to good people more often than we like to admit. You can choose to be a sheep and keep munching on the grass, or you can be a sheepdog and make it your job to be prepared for the wolf.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Tom;

MAJOR RESPONSIBILITY!

I knew that...That is why I said... "I grew up around guns and I respect them for what they are and do not see them as a toy. For me, they are a serious purchase that is not to be taken lightly. They are a responsibility that is very serious."

Become prepared and stay prepared if you take this route. You MUST NOT TAKE A DECISION SUCH AS THIS LIGHTLY.

That is why I am asking everyone for input.

You need EXPERT advice, not mouse jockeys on the internet.

Some members here are actual experts and not just mouse jockey's. Some members here I know very well and have respect for them.

There are many opinions here, mine included, but you need to face-to-face, maybe your Police Chief, Sheriff, Pastor, someone you have deep respect and admiration for. There's good advice in here, but ther's also junk.

Please tell me the junk that is here. Do your part to help maybe an innocent person that has not said a word about CCW, but has been mulling it around in his or her head.

If you're gonna prepare to shoot, then prepare, and practice, often, and don't stop, or don't carry. Poor preparation can put you in a world of serious hurt, for the rest of your life. CCW may wind up being a life altering event, think about it.

Again, that is why I am asking people from all angles. I will also need to take a gun safety course before I can apply for a permit. I do not live in Vermont.





Tom

 

[Tom Schindler]

It's funny...Tom is now talking like a gangster, "packing heat", "a lot of green", etc. I've never heard this type of language from Tom before.

Nelson, you have never head of anyone talking like a gangster if you think I am talking like one. I grew up in the ghetto and was the only "white boy" in elementary school.

I have lived in a lot of dangerous places in my life, and never felt the need to own a weapon.

Good for you. I am sure that young 18 year old girl that was killed by 17 year old boys with a gun never felt the need to own a weapon. I bet she felt safe in her neighborhood.



Fist to fist/mam to man fight is one thing. Worthless M'er F'ers like those 17 year old kids throwing guns around is a different subject.



How about the man that took a knife to a woman's neck and raped her many times before killing her? I bet she felt safe before the incident. Owning a gun may have never entered her mind.



How about the high school teacher that was driving to school when two thugs approached the vehicle? One stood in front of the vehicle, while the other broke the vehicle window and stabbed the driver after taking his wallet? I bet that teacher felt safe.



Those are only three examples. Sure, I do not feel unsafe in the hood I grew up in. That still doesn't say that I should open my arms up to ever scumbag up the street with trust and love.



I do not want to find my wife out shopping while I am at work (I work 3:30 PM to 11:30 PM) in a situation that she did not bargain for. She grew up in a small town and still does not understand what makes some of the places in town really bad, even though they do not look like it. I would rather have her with a weapon and never need it than hurt feeling "safe".





Tom

 

[Josh Langel]

Tom:



This is what I bought for my carry... a KelTech 380.. it's lite, accurate and small... and still packs a good punch.



Anything smaller than a 380 your asking just to piss someone off.... 45 cal is a nice self defense round too.



[Broken External Image]:

 

[Josh Langel]

This is about 30ft away... not bad for such a short barrel.

 

[Rick Owen 2]

As a former CCW instructor in NC I do not recomend anything under 9mm. Given the situation you must be in to use deadly force ( threat of death or serious bodily injury) a smaller caliber may cause your assilant to stop but not before potentially fatal injuries have occurred to you.



Stay with quality manufacturers. What is your life worth? I've seen several "low cost" firearms fail to function or even break during class. I've seen all brands have issues but the better ones far more infrequent. If you can't repeatedly go to the range and fire without jams or failure to fire issues, then do not use that gun for protection.



Also get instruction from certified instructors and practice what you are taught. There are many myths about shooting and when you can/can't shoot and if you are in this type of situation there are no second chances.

 

[TomT]

Just to hijack this thread even more I want to get people's opinion on an incident that just occurred a couple of days ago here in Houston. A man (retired, in his 60's) witnessed 2 men both illegal aliens) breaking into his neighbors house during the middle of the day. He immediately called police but knew the robbers would be gone long before the police could get there. He shot and killed both of them in the front yard (12 gauge) as they were trying to leave. His neighbor was a close friend and the man thought it was his responsibility to act. A grand jury is trying to decide if he should be indicted. (Like everywhere else, our laws seem more designed to protect the criminal then innocent people). There's more on the story at the link below.

Although I believe he may have been a little foolish by placing his own life in endangerment, I believe this nation needs more people like him. I'm not advocating vigilante justice but lets face it, our cops are overwhelmed. If you really believe a cop is going to be around every time you need him then your living in a dream world (or Beverly Hills). But that's kind of what this thread is about.

 

[Rich Stern]

TomT, as we discussed in Lasik's New Orleans assault thread, the use of deadly force to deter less-than-deadly crimnal activity is a dicey legal situation.



In the Houston story, the fact that the two men were illegal aliens brings an entire category of politics and interest to the case that might otherwise not be there, and that may not be good for the man who defended his neighbor's property.

 

[TomT]

Yea, it's going to be interesting. I'm sure LULAC will be out in force even though it has nothing to do with race or color. I'm sure the man just thinks like I do. I don't care what color you are, if you commit a crime against others you deserve to be dead. I'm tired of liberals feeling sorry for the criminals. I have no sympathy for them and would not hesitate to do the same in a similar situation.

 

[Jacob Dryer]

If it was on his own property wouldn't he have been ok by Texas' Make my day law? Or is that no longer in effect or was it a myth?



I always heard in Texas you could defend your property with lethal force. Granted this wasn't "his" property but if it was a neighbor and a good friend that would be my argument.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen said:

I do not want to find my wife out shopping while I am at work (I work 3:30 PM to 11:30 PM) in a situation that she did not bargain for.

Me neither. That's why I moved my wife and family out of the sh!thole 'burbs of NYC with all the minorities, and into the whitebread 'burbs of Southeastern PA almost 10 years ago.



Moving might be your best option.



Vote with your feet.



TJR

 

[Gary Kong]

Gavin,

Re: holsters for heavy set folks. It boils down to two major considerations:

1. Hips, do you have any or are you pear shaped?

2. "Dunlop's Disease." When your belly dun lopped over your belt line.



If you have no hips, and already have a hard time keeping pants up without suspenders, IWB (inside the waistband) holsters are a poor choice. The holsters reduces further the contact coverage of shirt-to-inside-of-pants minimizing the critical gripping strength needed to kee[ pants up. OWB (outside of the waistband) holsters are probably better, but you have the additional weight of the gun,holster, etc. adding to gravity trying to pull your pants down.



Dunlops sufferers seem to benefit from OWB holsters on the strong side, over the kidney area or SOB (small of back) mount. Then the belly doesn't hinder drawing so much, and the belly doesn't dig into the top of the gun.



For heavy cops who are not in uniform, esp. if they have a pants falling problem, shoulder holsters are popular. Not only does the shoulder rig not add any weight to your pants, but many models of shoulder rigs have loops that go around your pants belt and act as suspenders.



In uniform, my unit has so much extra junk on our duty belts that some of us have the tactical (breakaway capable, etc.) black suspenders to keep things up.



The remedy for preventing accidental discharges and safety concerns is simple:

1. Good training

2. Practice

3. Retraining

4. Weapon, ammo and holster maintenance and using high quality equipment