Handgun questions

[Tom Schindler]

Moving might be your best option.



Vote with your feet.

In other words, throw in the white flag and run for the hills. Let the criminals know they can scare away opposition by just being there.



Crime can happen anywhere. Even in the white suburbs. Voting with your feet is not always the best option. Taking back your neighborhood is the best choice. Making a statement that I will not stand back and let you destroy my neighborhood is worth more than running away with your tail between your legs.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen said:

In other words, throw in the white flag and run for the hills. Let the criminals know they can scare away opposition by just being there.



Crime can happen anywhere. Even in the white suburbs. Voting with your feet is not always the best option. Taking back your neighborhood is the best choice. Making a statement that I will not stand back and let you destroy my neighborhood is worth more than running away with your tail between your legs.

It was the best option for me. My kids/wife needed a dad/husband who is alive, a better quality of life, and a better school system...not a dad/husband who could get himself killed playing Batman, Dirty Harry, or whatever bad-ass vigilante comes to mind. Not to mention the reality that I can't be with my wife and kids 24x7 to protect them, and I didn't want to put them into a situation that the only/best protection I could give them is for them to be packing heat.



You don't have kids yet, Caymen. If and when you do, I suspect your attitude will change. One man can make a difference (I did by moving my family), but one man can't clean up an entire city alone...not in the real world...only in Hollywood.



That is as defeatist as I get (because a defeatist attitude is something I don't like to settle on), but when it comes to my family, someone else can play Charles Bronson. I have obtained the financial means such that I don't have to live with animals. As far as I am concerned they can all kill themselves. Sure, more and more elements of such crimes and violence make their way to the 'burbs, but they are extremely rare. No drive-bys, no muggings, no random shootings, no carjackings in my 'hood. It's all good. Oh, and most of the boys have their pants pulled up too!



Caymen also said:

Taking back your neighborhood is the best choice. Making a statement that I will not stand back and let you destroy my neighborhood is worth more than running away with your tail between your legs.

Who defines BEST? You go ahead and define 'best' for you. I will define best for me. Best for me is to stay alive...any scenario in which I am likely dead isn't BEST; not by a long shot. Best for me is not to KILL to try to clean up my neighborhood. Best for me is not having to get sued for putting a bullet in some scumbag because I chose to be in a situation that I have the means to avoid.



If it has come to the point that you have to kill to keep your neighborhood from being destroyed than I submit it is probably already too far gone. Why drop down to that level.

You don't have to fight to be a man.

-- Kenny Rogers

TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

...not a dad/husband who could get himself killed playing Batman, Dirty Harry, or whatever bad-ass vigilante comes to mind.

Anyone that carries a gun is a vigilante, or does someone that carries a gun is taking a proactive approach against crime?

You don't have kids yet, Caymen. If and when you do, I suspect your attitude will change. One man can make a difference (I did by moving my family), but one man can't clean up an entire city alone...not in the real world...only in Hollywood.

You are then saying that I will be running around my neighborhood flashing my gun as a real life Bruce Willis? (I do not live in a bad neighborhood, but roads take you into a bad neighborhood. For example the place my parents live that I must stop by at night while they are in Florida)

have obtained the financial means such that I don't have to live with animals.

Thanks for telling me I live with animals. I hope you are aware that my whole city is not bad, but in some places, shopping is in the same areas those "animals" also shop.



Are you really that out of touch with reality? Seriously.

Quote:



You don't have to fight to be a man.

-- Kenny Rogers

Have you ever really listened to the whole song. After the Gatlin boys raped Tommy's wife, he did kick the ass of ever Gatlin in town. He even said "sometimes you need to fight to be a man".

There's someone for everyone

And Tommy's love was Becky

In her arms he didn't have

To prove he was a man

One day while he was working

The Gatlin boys came calling

They took turns at Becky

N'there was three of them

Tommy opened up the door

And saw Becky crying

The torn dress, the shattered look

Was more than he could stand

He reached above the fireplace

Took down his daddy's picture

As his tears fell on his daddy's face

I heard these words again



Promise me, son

Not to do the things I've done

Walk away from trouble if you can

Now it don't mean you're weak

If you turn the other cheek

And I hope you're old enough to understand

Son, you don't have to fight to be a man



The Gatlin boys just laughed at him

When he walked into the barroom

One of them got up

And met him half way cross the floor

Tommy turned around they said

Hey look, old yeller's leavin'

You could've heard a pin drop

When Tommy stopped and locked the door



Twenty years of crawling

Was bottled up inside him

He wasn't holding nothing back

He let 'em have it all

Tommy left the bar room

Not a Gatlin boy was standing

He said, This one's for Becky

As he watched the last one fall

N' I heard him say



I promised you, Dad

Not to do the things you've done

I walk away from trouble when I can

Now please don't think I'm weak

I didn't turn the other cheek

Papa, I should hope you understand

Sometimes you gotta fight

When you're a man



Everyone considered him

The coward of the county

Have you really ever heard that song or did you only listen to part of it?



A real man knows when to walk away. That same man also knows when it is time to stand up for himself and not let anyone throw dirt in his face.



When you quote a song, know what it is about before you look like an idiot.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

I never said anyone who carries a gun is a vigilante. Someone who claims that they are buying a gun to "take back their neighborhood", which is pretty much what you said, could be viewed as a vigilante.



Did I say you live with animals? Nope, I didn't. Did I imply it? Nope, you did. Check the 2nd sentence of your first post.



Caymen said:

When you quote a song, know what it is about before you look like an idiot.

Again, being the NICE self that you are. The idiot was uncalled for.



Caymen, I know the song and I figured you would quote the bad-ass, tough guy part. Thanks for not disappointing.



Yes, the Gatlin boys "took turns at Becky", whatever that means. If it was rape, then I guess they had it coming, I won't deny that.



But what if Tommy and Becky lived in a town FILLED with rapists, such that it's only a matter of time before there was a conflict. I'm not saying anyone has crime "coming to them", but if one knows that being a victim of crime is likely YET they put themselves in that situation when they don't need to, then why would they do that? I just don't get it.



As for KNOWING the song, it seems the more subtle aspects are lost on you. The song has two morals.



One: Sometimes you have to fight WHEN you're a man (and those times clearly when you have no choice...as was the case in defending Becky); and



Two: That you don't have to fight to BE a man (as was the case for Tommy's father who was spending a life in jail because he never backed down).



So sue me, Caymen, for only quoting the part about the one moral. Clearly some of your attitude shows that you do think you have to fight to be a man (ie your "tail between your legs" comment).



So, I ask you Caymen...Is your back really against the wall? Do you HAVE to stay and fight? Do you really HAVE to? Or do you WANT to?



My kids love amusement parks but we don't go to the largest one closest to our house (Dorney Park in Allentown PA). Why? Because it is filled with animals; disrespectful, ready to smack you if you look at them animals that don't know how to behave. Sure, I could go there and try to take back the park...make my stand...but why? What do I have to prove?



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

But what if Tommy and Becky lived in a town FILLED with rapists, such that it's only a matter of time before there was a conflict.

What if Tommy and Becky did not live in the area filled with rapists, but their source of employment took them through that town?



Your problem is that you think the best answer is to run. Sorry, I am not leaving my area. This is where my career is. The company I work for is the ONLY company in the USA that can build we build. Countries in other countries can not bid on what we build. I can move to another town, something that we are planning on doing, but still the stores and shopping, especially the stores Theresa shops at to provide the living she provides us, sometimes takes her into the bad parts of town.



This is not about living in fear.



This is about protecting oneself if something could go down.



Here is an example. My Ohio CCW licence will allow me to carry a gun from OH to SC. I can get a NH permit that will cover me in GA. Then my Ohio permit will allow Florida.



I was driving out of the Florida Keys and needed to get gas in the S. Miami, Florida area. We get off the highway to fill up. I got a trailer behind me. I pull into a station to get gas. I start to fill up. A minute later, about 5 low riders pull up. A bunch of people get out and start yelling at each other. Is it gang related? Maybe, maybe not. Was I in danger? Maybe, maybe not. Could I have been in danger? Possibly.Did I stick around to find out? Nope. I stoped fueling and left. Got back on the highway and left. I got gas on the turnpike.



If someone would have walked up to me, I would have had something to protect myself if I needed to. I might never need it, then again...you never really know.



This is not about paranoia, This is not about fear. This is about self preservation if I find myself in the wrong part of town at the wrong time.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen:



Source of employment is a choice. We all have choices. If your job is such that you can't get another similar one elsewhere, then staying has it's costs. Living in a bad neighborhood, driving through those bad neighborhoods are part of that cost. Having to protect yourself is part of that cost. Having to worry (and you will still worry even when packing, or when your wife is packing) will continue to be part of that cost.



I do find it hard to believe that there is only one company, in one location in the entire country that could employ you with a salary that gives you the same quality-of-life as that which you enjoy now. I've never met someone with such limited mobility.



I'm all for someone having the right protection for the right circumstance. A policeman should have a gun. A fireman should have a helmet and fire jacket. Those guys/gals need that protection because they deliberately put themselves in harms way each and every day because of their jobs. Wearing/having that protection is part of their job...a cost of their job.



You are now saying you are not unlike a cop, or a fireman, and that because of your job you need extra protection. Where is your union in all this? I am somewhat serious. Don't companies owe it to their employees to place their work locations in safe places?



I'm not saying you are afraid or living in fear.



I sense that you are empowering yourself and looking to add a sense of safety and self protection to your life.



I hope it works for you.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

You are now saying you are not unlike a cop, or a fireman, and that because of your job you need extra protection. Where is your union in all this? I am somewhat serious. Don't companies owe it to their employees to place their work locations in safe places?

We have an 8' fence around the perimeter of our plant along withbarbed wire on the top of the fence.



That is not the point.



Driving to and from work has nothing to do with the union, company, or anyone else. It is a fact of life.



Having the option to carry a gun is also a fact of life. This is not about being a bad ass. This is about having the option to carry if I feel like it.

I sense that you are empowering yourself and looking to add a sense of safety and self protection to your life.

No different than running with your tail between you legs to a new town to segregate yourself from lesser humans.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen said:

No different than running with your tail between you legs to a new town to segregate yourself from lesser humans

Insulting as usual.



Yeah, the only difference is that my actions statistically show that I have drastically decreased the liklihood that I or my family will be a victim of a violent crime; that they will be educated in a better school system; and they will have a better quality of life.



Your actions will bring you peace of mind but won't change anything else. You still will have the same high odds of being a victim of a violent crime (now you will just have a gun) and you will still have to live in, and drive through, neighborhoods that make you uneasy and generally decrease your quality of life.



It was a hard thing to move...it changed our life. Its never easy to move. Often people want what is familiar and known; even when it is endangering them. It's not unlike the "battered wife syndrome."



As I said among your insults, good luck.



P.S. Regarding "segregate yourself from lesser humans" sounds like an admonishment....that from the guy that uses the term "scumbags", etc. If not meant as a sarcastic admonishment, then I apologize. If so, then it seems you and I aren't so different. I call a spade a spade.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

Glad to see you tried to play admin on this topic.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



"Tried to play admin"....what do you mean? My continued request that you don't insult me?



I guess I should take my own advice. I know engaging in a conversation with you has a high liklihood that you will be insulting and sarcastic and yet I still engage.



I am also an optimist, and I think people can change.



Some can't I guess.



As I said, good luck.



But as I pointed out, you really aren't doing ANYTHING to reduce the liklihood that you or your wife will be a victim...you are only increasing the likihood that you will walk away from it...and even that's debateable. If you want to discuss that, unemotionally, unsarcastically, then I would enjoy that.



Again, good luck.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

But as I pointed out, you really aren't doing ANYTHING to reduce the liklihood that you or your wife will be a victim...you are only increasing the likihood that you will walk away from it...and even that's debateable. If you want to discuss that, unemotionally, unsarcastically, then I would enjoy that.

You actually prefer to argue about it. Sorry, on this topic, I will not entertain you on it.



This subject is just too serious.





Tom

 

[Gary Kong]

Just a cop's insights on location.

1. The city I protect has an area where politicians and movie stars live in multimillion dollar homes, some gated, guard dogs, etc.

2. Minutes away in other parts of the same city, shootings and murders are fairly commonplace.

3. Often, the people from # 2 like to visit the people in # 1 because they have more and better stuff to steal and are less likely to carry guns

4. The people in # 1 have to leave their areas and gated homes to do normal activities



I think some people do, in fact, carry a gun with a CCW for the wrong reason. They have a John Wayne complex and tempt fate whereas the legitimate CCW applicant merely wants an edge if negotiations, flight, etc. fail. As a cop I've had dozens of opportunities to shoot people who confronted me and/or my partner but by using other methods a shooting was avoided...yet if the circumstances had changed by just .05% in those cases we'd have a dead suspect, a sad cop and the nightmare of paperwork and litigation (and maybe real nightmares) just begins. Nobody in their right mind looks for a fight, much less a gun fight.



I carry off duty. It used to be required, now it is optional. I have a young daughter and wife. I HAVE been confronted while with them in a parking lot. I chose not to shoot the knife wielding thug but disarmed him and scared his buddies away. A passerby called 911 and the local cops arrived. They knew the thug on sight, he was on probation, etc. To this day I am grateful I did not drop him, but I was glad I could have if he had not submitted.



With the right attitude, a respect for all life, common sense and proper training it is my strong opnion that people should be able to carry if legally able to do so. It is just an option. Civilians who CCW are not enforcers nor should they be looking for trouble...they just have a little bit of insurance if all other options fail.



Sorry for ranting.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Eltee,



Thank you for proving my point.





Tom

 

[TomT]

I always heard in Texas you could defend your property with lethal force. Granted this wasn't "his" property but if it was a neighbor and a good friend that would be my argument.

Yes, you can defend your own property here in Texas. (Imagine that. What a concept.) Of course he was defending his neighbors property hence lies the controversy.

I say once you commit a felony act you should have no more rights.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Eltee said:

I think some people do, in fact, carry a gun with a CCW for the wrong reason. They have a John Wayne complex and tempt fate whereas the legitimate CCW applicant merely wants an edge if negotiations, flight, etc. fail. As a cop I've had dozens of opportunities to shoot people who confronted me and/or my partner but by using other methods a shooting was avoided...yet if the circumstances had changed by just .05% in those cases we'd have a dead suspect, a sad cop and the nightmare of paperwork and litigation (and maybe real nightmares) just begins. Nobody in their right mind looks for a fight, much less a gun fight.

And thanks for making my point. There are many people who carry guns for the wrong reason and have that John Wayne complex, as if it is their job to rid the world of bad guys. It isn't.



As you say, nobody in their right mind looks for a gun fight.



My point, and it was lost it seems on some, is if one knows that there is a liklihood that there will be trouble in a certain situation, so much trouble that they think they need a gun; then why would that person put themselves in that situation if they don't really have to?



I still haven't heard of legit reasons. Sure, random bad things can happen anywhere and for that reason some might find it comforting to have the protection.



Eltee also said:

Civilians who CCW are not enforcers nor should they be looking for trouble...they just have a little bit of insurance if all other options fail.

Again, my point. If you live in a neighborhood where you know there is trouble, then it seems to me that by sticking around you are in a way "looking for it"...you most definately are avoiding it.



I'm alergic to bees, but I don't carry an epi-pen. At the same time, I don't visit honey farms, or poke my head in bees nests. Yes, the randomness of it all means I could get stung and regret it, regardless where I am. But I deliberately don't do those things that would increase the liklihood and therefore make the protection more needed.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

My point, and it was lost it seems on some, is if one knows that there is a liklihood that there will be trouble in a certain situation, so much trouble that they think they need a gun; then why would that person put themselves in that situation if they don't really have to?

And if your parents live in an area like that, you have no choice but to go to that area.



If you work on one side of town that is good, live on the other side of town that is good, but to get to either side, you must drive through the bad part, does that mean you need to run to whiteys neighborhood?



No.



The best answer is to avaqid putting yourself in that situation, but as usual, TJR only sees it from one side...his side.





Tom

 

[Rich Stern]

With the right attitude, a respect for all life, common sense and proper training it is my strong opnion that people should be able to carry if legally able to do so. It is just an option. Civilians who CCW are not enforcers nor should they be looking for trouble...they just have a little bit of insurance if all other options fail.

That may be a perfectly reasonable, modern view.



Once upon a time, the people of this nation believed that the community was responsible for it's own well being, including protecting itself from thieves, rapists and murderers.



Our society has become entirely too willing to cede terroritory and property to thugs, in order to "avoid any trouble." Approximately 1 in 30 adults in the U.S. are either in prison or on probation. Creations of a society that refuses to stand up to such behavior, except via political rhetoric, taxation and hired guns.



We hear the common refrain that police don't have the resources to combat this problem or that problem. And with people afraid to stick their heads outdoors when a scary noise happens outside, we've empowered the thugs to participate in permanent, lucrative criminal industries as alternatives to education, jobs, and productive roles.



We let murderes live for 10 or 15 years on death row over issues like whether or not lethal injections are "humane." The families of their victims suffer prolonged exposure to media highlights of the inane legal battle.



A guy like Caymen, willing to take steps to defend his family and property and an honest claim to peacable liberty in his home town, is branded a "John Wayne type vigilante."



Congratulations to us. What a nice cesspool we've made for ourselves.

 

[Jacob Dryer]

TJR said..

I'm alergic to bees, but I don't carry an epi-pen. At the same time, I don't visit honey farms, or poke my head in bees nests. Yes, the randomness of it all means I could get stung and regret it, regardless where I am. But I deliberately don't do those things that would increase the liklihood and therefore make the protection more needed.

I'm allergic too.. I carry and epi-pen when I do things that I enjoy that could possibly put me at risk. I like camping (in a tent), I like rock climbing, I like being outside, I ride a motorcycle.. all of these things put me at risk for being stung. So when I'm away from home I carry an epi-pen.



How is preparing for the worst a bad thing? I enjoy all of the above and with it comes some risk.



Caymen, likes were he lives, likes where he works, likes his kids schools, likes where his wife works (I know some assumptions but deal with it) so he's taking the steps to preserve what he likes and enjoys.



I like in a very nice area of San Diego, I still sleep with a pistol under my bed, and a shotgun in the closet (both unlocked and ready to go since we have no kids) I hear noises and my first thought is to roll over and grab my gun. I never have, but it's there. Unfortunatly SD county and the whole state of Cali doesn't like the idea of me leaving my house with one so I don't have a CCW.



Again the point is Caymen likes everything about where he is except one factor. Why give up everything you like over one thing when so many things are positive?

 

[Tom Schindler]

Why give up everything you like over one thing when so many things are positive?

Because Kenny Rogers sang a song that said "You don't have to fight to be a man". Once you hear that part, you shut it off and make that your motto.





Tom

 

[Kevin Lang]

Instead of Kenny Rodgers, the Mel Gibson movie The Patriot could have been quoted. It served the same point as the song, but was naturally cooler. Guy vows to be nonviolent because he has kids (that was mentioned here), but then he gets walked over, and one of his kids dies, and THEN he takes action. Same thing happens in the song. These examples aren't here to tell you to follow their example, they're here to teach you to be proactive and prepare to deal with the worst, so you don't have to suffer like they did.



In addition to the firearm, which too many people believe affords an instant aura of protection, you could get some unarmed training in. We said earlier that you shouldn't draw the gun unless you are justified in killing the opponent, so if that killing is unjustified, you're at the same level of non-protection that you were before you got the gun. Beating the crap out of an idiot is not only better in a legal light, but it has no moral ramifications, and your body is always there, unlike the firearm, which can run out of ammo, jam, or be removed from your possession.



Guns--with perpetual training as eltee says--are fine and good, but why settle for just one option? 2 is better than one.



You guys mention john wayne. He had both melee and firearm attacks in his arsenal: the massive roundhouse punch which sent the idiots flying through the bar doors, and the "bang, you're dead" shootout at noon.



Both had their place for being used, and you never saw john wayne dying off in a movie



(not that a roundhouse punch is the definitive end-all unarmed maneuver...far from it)



Both h