Japanese Automakers sweep CR Top 10

[Nelson Atwell]

TJR,



I suspect Tom's (Caymen) reason is that if he bought a Toyota, it might put a union brother out of work. That would be a burden on his mind and prevent him from sleeping at night. Just my theory...



I have met a few staunch Union members in my day. Usually, their father and grandfathers were in the union as well. Their elders spoke almost daily of the virtues of being in the Union, and how the Union takes care of its own. They spoke of how much better their lives are because of the Union. Back in those days it was all true.



Now there is a generation of people who believe in the Union, and the Union isn't what it was. Now the Union has become a burden on the members and the corporations and the nation. The staunch members still defend the Union, because of the things they learned as children. The remaining members are in the Union, because they have to be to keep their jobs.



It is very much like the situation in the Middle East. The Jewish kids are taught from birth that the Arabs are blood-thirsty heathens, and the Arab kids are taught the Jews are unbelieving infidels. There is no reasoning with either side, because the "religion" has been burned into their brains by every authority figure they've ever met.



It's called "brain-washing" and once it has been done, there is almost no way to undo it, because the person that has had this done closes their mind to any opposing views.

 

[Tom Schindler]

I still think it's a matter of perception, good marketing will sell anything.

Need proof? Drink a Budweiser beer then drink a real beer.





Tom

 

[Josh Langel]

The F-150 has a nicer interior than my Tundra, IMHO.

***********The Tundra's interior lacks; BIG TIME.



The Tundra's bed is made metal, but the F150 is made from a fiberglass/plastic composite.

***********My Tundra has already gotten a dent in the rear quarter panel, so I curse Toyota for not having the bed made of plastic --- I wouldn't have a dent.



The F-150 rides quieter than my Tundra.



The Tundra has better leather than the Ford.



Tundra has a bigger bed, which is nice if you’re doing a lot of work, but I like the F-150's bed better.



The Tundra has a fully automatic rear window; the F-150 has a dinky little sliding window that maybe a puppy can fit through (useless).



The F-150 makes the statement: "I am big and bad ass, so move!"



The Tundra says: "Please move."



The Tundra idles much nicer than the F-150.



The F-150 has more HP than the Tundra.



The Tundra has a lot of HP for a 4.7 V8 (compared to the F-150's 4.6).



The F-150's doors close like the ones on my dad's Econoline 250 work van.



The Tundra's doors close like they should.



The F-150 has been notorious as a workhorse because a lot of counties purchase them as fleet vehicles and the "ranchers" use them for their work.



The Tundra has been used for some work, but then again it has not been around as long as F-150.



My Tundra has had zero problems in the 4,500 miles of ownership.



I have never owned a F-150, but my brother's 1999 150 has been to hell and back with only a tranny replacement from his own stupidity. How many miles does his 150 have? 130k.



How many problems did my Trac have? Too many.



Why did I buy Toyota? Because Ford pissed me off.



That is why. If Ford didn't make my Trac such a lemon, then I would have gone with a F150.



There is no quality reasons why I wouldn't drive a F150, but Ford has a lot of work to do.



I couldn't sleep if I bought another Ford --- I lost so much before on their behalf.









My opinion? Yes.

 

[P M]

I've had three Hondas and two Fords. To be truthful, the ST has had fewer problems than any of the Hondas. The other Ford, a Windstar, had a few more problems than the Hondas. None of them have had any major issues though. I really do believe perception has a great deal to do with how people accept little issues with their car. If you want an interesting perspective, go to the Ridgeline Owners Club forum and read about their issues. Not meant to bash them at all, just to point out that all cars types can have issues and so can the service departments. I also had a Toyota, but sold it after a few months. No mechanical problems, just didn't like it. For lack of a better term, it just seemed to lack personality. Purely a personal preference thing. By 70's or 80's standards, almost all cars today are incredibly reliable. I've found service to be more of an individual shop issue than a company wide consideration. If you can find a good reliable local shop, you're set. There are good Ford service departments and crappy ones. Same goes for Honda, Toyota, etc. I still research vehicles to try and factor in reliability, common problems, etc, but it seems to me to be less of an issue now than at any point in the past. I really do believe the big 3 need to tackle this perception problem. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If their quality is not up to par, fix it. If it is good, they must find a way to communicate that in a way that the consumers will see it and really believe it.

 

[Deleted deleted]

One of the things CR reported in their top 10 list was that the imports know the 'nice little touches' that people want. The Japanese seem to listen to what the consumer wants and quickly adds it to their vehicles. The Big 3 listen, but they don't act upon the feedback they receive.



Here's my list that my Matrix has that my ST didn't:



1) Interior fuel release lever. Why does a $16K vehicle have this and a $25K ST doesn't?



2) Dual trip odometers. Same question as #1.



3) 110v AC plug in dash. Same question as #1.



4) Radiator hose is routed away from anything that might rub against it. Same question as #1.



5) Spark plugs can be changed in 10 mins without bloody knuckles. Same question as #1.



6) Brake pads don't wear out in 30K miles. Same question as #1.



7) Rear hatch/tailgate doesn't squeak. Same question as #1.



8) Has a cabin air filter. Same question as #1.



9) Oil filter not mounted near exhaust pipe. Same question as #1.



10) Factory struts not shot at 5K miles. Same question as #1.



Need I go on?



These may seem like small items to some of you guys, but to the average consumer they add up, even if there is only a 'perceived' image of better quality.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Oil filter not mounted near exhaust pipe. Same question as #1

Welcome to the world of V6's. Can you say the same thing about all Toyota's? as the list above?



Does the Camry have a 110V plug on the dash. 25,000 and it doesn't have one?

5) Spark plugs can be changed in 10 mins without bloody knuckles. Same question as #1.

Again, welcome to the world of a V6. You have a 4 cylinder. Night and day difference. Can a Camry V6 plugs be changed in 10 minutes? It is a $25,000 vehicle!



Lets compare apples to apples here and a Matrix is not a representation of all Toyota vehicles. I have a Tacome around here that does not have 110V in the dash, cabin air filter, change the plugs in 10 minutes, dual trip odo's..not even an ODO at all.



Shall I go on, or does your reality say since the Motrix has one, they all do.





Tom

 

[Josh Langel]

When buying a vehicle, what matters most [and give us a percent]?



Looks/style (%)?



Quality/ durability (%)?



Brand (%)?



Price/value (%)?

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

Darin, the Pontiac Vibe has all those items.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Looks/style (%)? 20



Quality/ durability (%)? 50



Brand (%)? 10



Price/value (%)? 20

 

[Deleted deleted]

MikeC: I know the Vibe is identical to the Matrix. The only problem is it carries a GM brand name which means lowered trade in value.



Plus, the Vibe has that standard ugly GM plastic cladding all over it. The Matrix has none, looks much cleaner.

 

[Chet 02]

Actually the Vibe GT has the cladding. It's base model does not.

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

That's my point. It is perception, not fact that make the Japanese products seem better. I agree that the Matrix trade in most likely will be higher, but the Vibe is the identical car. If people would purchase based on facts, I'd buy the used Vibe rather than the more expensive used Matrix and get a better deal. Most people know squat about a car. They go by perception of what's good or not.

 

[Tom Schindler]

MikeC,



You hit the nail on the head. Just because it says Toyota, that makes it better. There are many cars in the GM line that are Toyota's, but they will never have the resale value of the Toyota.



Just proves how stupid some people actually are.





Tom

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

Speaking of the Matrix GT, that engine only has power up at the extreme rpm range. An extremely bad match for a commuter car. How come no one complains about this poor design? Maybe it's because it is Japanese? Same is true of the Honda S2000. Power is only on the extreme end. Again, not a good design. A 3.0L BMW Z3 will out perform a S2000 and has less HP but a very broad torque band. Don't get me wrong. I like high revving engines, but it must also have low end torque and acceptable low end power. After all, that's where you drive it most of the time.



NelsonOKC, you said

Since a Ford is not a luxury auto, I expect to pay low prices for repairs.

. Most of the cost is in labor. BTW foreign repairs charge a higher hourly rate than U.S. brands. So if Ford is not an expensive car, do you want to pay the technician less for his labor. BTW c/o the price of foreign parts. You'll cry.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

You miss the point. In 185,000 miles of driving Toyotas, I only replaced two parts, and that was only after driving the car for over eight years. My brake pads, which cost about $50, and the radiator which cost me around $120, because I had to get it shipped to Portugal from the US. I bought both of my Toyotas new for under $10,000 and they were less troublesome than either of my STs which cost 2-1/2 times as much.



I don't mind paying more for parts, if I don't have to buy them as often. I also don't mind paying a little extra for the labor if they fix the problem the first time, without me having to come back several times and arguing with the technician to convince him I have a problem.

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

Out of curiosity I looked up TSBs for a 2003 Ford sport Trac and a 2003 Honda Accord as an indication of problems. I chose 2003 'cause that is the year of my Trac. There were on 16 TSBs for the Trac and 131 TSBs for the Honda. Again I still say it is perception.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Nelson,



I can not tell you the numerous vehicles my family has driven with no problems. Ford all the way. We beat the holy hell out of our vehicles and they never let us down. 200 to 300 thousand miles.





Tom