Just in time for taxes....must see

[Josh Langel]

Wow, I am about to hijack this thread, but I couldn't help but read TJR's response and how it really can apply to the Iraq war:

I see no value in tearing down the existing systems and infrastructure, or even questioning their legality and validity, if we have no alternate solution in mind....one that is better.

Now, I am against the war, but what TJR says is true.



A lot of people (mostly some that criticise Bush's plan) say we should be doing something else orsomething to that affect different in Iraq. I don't believe in the war (due to the idea we were told one thing and it was not true), but I cannot say what we <b>should do.</b> I can say what we should have done, but that's a different story. I have no clue how we're going to win the war (if there is such an outcome for "our side") and I have no plan of escaping it, thus I can't beat Bush up over his new plan, since I don't have one either.



Okay, where the hell am I going?



(I will repeat the quote)

I see no value in tearing down the existing systems and infrastructure, or even questioning their legality and validity, <b>if we have no alternate solution in mind....one that is better.</b>

How can we say that it's a bad idea and not have one of our own.



Now, I hope I didn't lose anyone, because something tells me I am not making sense...



I know what I am saying will make me sound hypocritical if you've read any of my posts from earlier subjects on Iraq, but I just don't see how people can demand change and have no clue as to what they want.... or in Iraq's case, how we should fight...



Agh.. enough of me... carry on.. :unsure:



Sorry for the hijack...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

r vo,



No my solution is not to sit there and take it. My solution is to get the "fair tax" inacted ASAP. That's why I have joined in the petition and written my congressmen.





Mud,



I hear you. A lot of people do what I like to call "pi$$ing in people's ears"...they are just annoying and they will talk to anyone that will listen about what IS WRONG with this, that, or the other thing. But when you ask them what they would do differently, you often find that they have no better alternative in mind, or at best they have a plan for a plan, etc.



TJR

 

[V Ro]

TJR,



still ingoring the Fed reserve banks and giving the power back to congress and not a bunch of private banks.



why shouldn't the american people(ie the american government) make all the money that the fed res banks make?



why do you ignore this simple fact of what could be the simplest thing to lower our taxes?



I am not pissing and moaning I am giving a real solution to a real problem and you have nothign to say but



"A lot of people do what I like to call "pi$$ing in people's ears"."



"But when you ask them what they would do differently, you often find that they have no better alternative in mind, or at best they have a plan for a plan, etc."



we there is a plan...that hs been tried by past people like kennedy, but we all know that he was not allowed to implement it.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Yes, but Tom (Caymen) you complain about the taxes, but what about the Union dues. Isn't that just another entity taking your hard-earned money? With taxes, I see tangible benefits, such as roads, schools, federal programs, etc. What do union employees get for their dues?

What do I get for my union dues? Plenty. I get treated fairly when it comes to doing my job. I am not handed the crap jobs because I do them and the other guy won't. I can stand up and say this is not safe without fear of being blackballed because of it. I am free of having the company butt kisser making more money because he takes the boss fishing or hunting and I don't.



I get plenty of benefits from paying union dues. You will learn that when you get into the real world.



I am not saying that be be offensive, but the military, when you are out of the bullet catching phase than start working for them. The real world is dealing with favortism, butt kissing, and people "on their knees".

So the fair tax is something you would support.

I support the fair tax completely. I am completely for abolishing the IRS and their scumbag practices. I am sure I have made that clear in the past.

You think it wouldn't hurt the rich.

Have you read the book? I have, 3 times.

So, what is holding back it happening (you said: it will never happen)?

It takes control away for the powers that be, and the powers that be are the rich. As I said before, find me someone in the House, Senate, White House, or Supreme Court that is not in the top 1%. Not gonna happen. Control is a powerfull thing.

I think it could actually help the economy and have the rich pay less in taxes (they would welcome that)...so what are the hurddles?

Control, as I said before. One way to control the people is fear. The IRS keeps every single one of us in fear.



Case in point, a few years back, I worked at a location I am not allowed to discuss in too much detail. It was a closed down Uranium Enrichment Facility. The job I did was classified. I am not allowed to speak about it. Enough with that. Since I completed that job, I changed employers. Since I used my current employers address as my address because of security issues, again I am unable to elaborate, I no longer used that address. There were some health concerns on what I may have been exposed to, I had to have a health exam required by the government. Since the address on file was no longer valid, the government contacted the IRS to get in touch with me.



A few years later, I get a letter from the IRS, "Personal and Confidential" in the mail.



What would be the first thing you think of? Would you not be scared? Fear. Fear. Fear.



That letter was to tell me that the government needs to see me for a health exam because of what I may have been exposed to at that facility.



Again, a letter from the IRS is never a good thing, though in my case, it was not bad.



The thought of an Audit came to mind.



That is fear and fear is control.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



I see the power that the IRS has and the fear that it instills.



I don't, however, see the power and control that the rich get from the current system and why the rich, that have more to gain from a fair tax than most would be opposed to it.



I haven't read the book (but I have thumbed through it, and I do read lots of books but have never read a single book 3 times), so I will ask, does the book explain why the rich don't want the new system?



If so, and you read it three times, I would expect you could articulate a better answer than "it takes away control...", for example, what control are you talking about?



Or is that "takes away control" excuse coming from you. I am well aware of your contempt for the "so called" rich.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

r vo, I must say, I don't really see how the Federal Reserve bank "issue" is a tax issue.



Sure, I do understand some of the controversy, but I think you are bring up two different issues.



We could have tax reform in the form of abolishing the current system and the IRS and adopting the fair tax and still not touch the Fed Res issue.



Let's focus on fixing ONE thing at a time. You started bitching about taxes. Stay focused! ;-)



TJR

 

[V Ro]

maybe if you watched the fill you would realize how the fed reserve and our taxes are connected....but until that point in which you see how we are paying(with our taxes) the fed reserve(which is not our government) interest for printing our(US) money, from nothing(as in no backing for the notes)



http://www.themoneymasters.com/faq.htm



a little bit of a read



as I am sure you are saying this is all propaganda...but isn't there propaganda from both sides?



would they be honest..who benefits..the banks...what do the banks own?...everything

 

[Tom Schindler]

I haven't read the book (but I have thumbed through it, and I do read lots of books but have never read a single book 3 times), so I will ask, does the book explain why the rich don't want the new system?

if the population honestly knew how much money they pay in Tax's, they would hold the politions responsible for thier money spending on "important" issues like, Cow Farts and the environment, and $150.00 per case price on Coca-Cola.



If you never see that money you never miss it. If you got your paycheck in cash, than had to hand money back, you would think different about how the government spends your money.



You need to remember, people like you and I are smart enough to know how much we pay in tax's. Not all people do.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

v ro, yes, we used to have a reserve that was based on the gold standard and we had gold in the reserve that was the basis for the money in circulation. And, yes, to a certain extent, when we get away from that standard the government could, if it wanted, simply print up money out of nothing.



But again, that's not directly linked to paying too much taxes, which was your complaint...a complaint veiled in your contempt for the current system.



It sounds like you are all over the place in your criticism of what's wrong...but again, what is your plan to FIX all this?



Caymen, I agree...most people don't appreciate how much they are taxed. I look at it this way...that $27K I sent to the IRS last year just for the federal portion of my income tax is way too frigging much. No single family should be paying that much a year, regardless how much they make. There is no possible way the govt can justify the need for that much money from one family. So, yes, I can understand how the "excess" of govt spending becomes the topic when speaking of taxes.



That's why I want a system where *IF I CHOOSE* I can pay less in taxes AND STILL put more money in my pocket. The way I do that with fair tax is I simply SPEND less. Work all I want, spend less....more money for me. Instead of the current system where the more you work the more they take (and take at ever increasing ratios).



TJR

 

[V Ro]

you still don't get it...



so I give up



we pay them to do things we can do for ourselves and should do for ourselves.



how much do you think they print...how much do they get to do it?



what does it cost them?



.......why can't we save that money and not pay our taxes to the private banks that run the fed



learn then speak...if you do not see the probelm you cannot have an answer

 

[Rich Stern]

you still don't get it...



so I give up

You haven't offered any compelling arguments. You post links to the words of others, and those authors you are referencing are widely regarded as quacks. I honestly don't think you understand this information. Make the argument in your own words, and we'll have something to debate.

we pay them to do things we can do for ourselves and should do for ourselves.

For example?

how much do you think they print...how much do they get to do it?

Who is "they?"

what does it cost them?

.......why can't we save that money and not pay our taxes to the private banks that run the fed

Can you show a verifiable audit trail, or even a logically explained path that shows our tax money goes to private banks?

learn then speak...if you do not see the probelm you cannot have an answer

If all you see is a problem and cannot explain it clearly, you're exactly the kind of person the conspiracy theorists want as a consumer of their "information." Buy the conspiracy book. That's the goal of the author.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Thanks Rich...

 

[TomT]

Make Your Own Conspiracy Theory

 

[A K]

 

[Tom Schindler]

Caymen, I agree...most people don't appreciate how much they are taxed. I look at it this way...that $27K I sent to the IRS last year just for the federal portion of my income tax is way too frigging much. No single family should be paying that much a year, regardless how much they make. There is no possible way the govt can justify the need for that much money from one family. So, yes, I can understand how the "excess" of govt spending becomes the topic when speaking of taxes.



That's why I want a system where *IF I CHOOSE* I can pay less in taxes AND STILL put more money in my pocket. The way I do that with fair tax is I simply SPEND less. Work all I want, spend less....more money for me. Instead of the current system where the more you work the more they take (and take at ever increasing ratios).

Lets get to the root of all taxes. Who pays all tax's to the government?



The end consumer does. Not the big corporations. They don't pay a dime.



We do.



How? It is part of the price we pay. IIRC, about 20% of the cost of all goods we buy are actually taxes. Not labor costs, not engineering costs. Taxes. The steel used to make a car has been taxed when it came out of the ground as ore. It is taxed again when it is turned into a steel ingot. It is taxed again when it is sold as sheet metal to build a car. It is then taxed when the car is built. That cost is placed on us, the consumer.



With the fair tax, the cost of things we buy will drop by 20%. So not only do we pay less taxes, the final price of our goods, the government gets more money, we are free from the fear of the IRS, and we all win.



The biggest downful is the loss of control the government will have over its people. When you see the money you earn leave your hand after it has been given to you, you start to put more thought into what the government is spending your money on.



I personally feel the government does not want us to require accountability for our money.





Tom

 

[Nelson Atwell]

This whole debate goes back to what several of us have posted here over the past couple of years. A big portion of the US population thinks they are ENTITLED to have everything they want delivered to them on a silver platter...bought and paid for by the US government. In return, they refuse to give anything back. They won't volunteer for military service or work a government job, and they complain every chance they get about the taxes they pay.



Look at the article I've linked below. The US has almost the lowest taxes in the developed world. This is in spite of our status as the only remaining superpower and "Policeman" of the free World. We have more social programs than most countries, and our standard of living is near the top as well.



It is beyond me how anyone can complain about life being harsh in the US. Apparently, our society needs to be educated on what is going on outside of our borders, because maybe then we would realize how great we have things in the US. EVERYWHERE I go in the World, people are envious of how we live.



To give an example -- Poland is not what I would call a poor country compared to the rest of the World. In fact, compared to a lot of places I've seen they seem rich. However, I'm here in the military (we are not rich in case you didn't know) and people look at me like I'm Donald Trump. I can go eat a lavish meal, including a drink and huge fattening dessert in the best restaurant in town for the equivalent of $11. I could buy almost anything I want here, because even though our dollar is weaker than it used to be, it is still strong compared to the rest of the World, and by World standards, I am in the top 1% in the World in income. Think about that for a minute. An average Joe in the US, is richer than almost everyone in the World...and the "Average Joes" in the US complain that they don't have enough money. Give me a break!

 

[Tom Schindler]

Nelson,



It is not about complaining. If there is a better way to do the same job with better benefits, would it foolish not to do it that way?



Just because some people do not join the military does not make them less of a citizen. Joining the military does make you more of a citizen.



All that is required of me to be a citizen to abide by the rules and pay my taxes. I do both.



I also have the right to complain about things I don't think is fair and suggest things that can be done to improve the government.



I pay my taxes, but since this government is by the people, for the people, I also have the right to question where my money is going.



Nelson, right now, how much income tax are you paying?





Tom

 

[V Ro]

On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest. With the stroke of a pen, President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business. The Christian Law Fellowship has exhaustively researched this matter through the Federal Register and Library of Congress. We can now safely conclude that this Executive Order has never been repealed, amended, or superceded by any subsequent Executive Order. In simple terms, it is still valid.



When President John Fitzgerald Kennedy - the author of Profiles in Courage -signed this Order, it returned to the federal government, specifically the Treasury Department, the Constitutional power to create and issue currency -money - without going through the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank. President Kennedy's Executive Order 11110 [the full text is displayed further below] gave the Treasury Department the explicit authority: "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." This means that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce new money into circulation based on the silver bullion physically held there. As a result, more than $4 billion in United States Notes were brought into circulation in $2 and $5 denominations. $10 and $20 United States Notes were never circulated but were being printed by the Treasury Department when Kennedy was assassinated. It appears obvious that President Kennedy knew the Federal Reserve Notes being used as the purported legal currency were contrary to the Constitution of the United States of America.



"United States Notes" were issued as an interest-free and debt-free currency backed by silver reserves in the U.S. Treasury. We compared a "Federal Reserve Note" issued from the private central bank of the United States (the Federal Reserve Bank a/k/a Federal Reserve System), with a "United States Note" from the U.S. Treasury issued by President Kennedy's Executive Order. They almost look alike, except one says "Federal Reserve Note" on the top while the other says "United States Note". Also, the Federal Reserve Note has a green seal and serial number while the United States Note has a red seal and serial number.



President Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963 and the United States Notes he had issued were immediately taken out of circulation. Federal Reserve Notes continued to serve as the legal currency of the nation. According to the United States Secret Service, 99% of all U.S. paper "currency" circulating in 1999 are Federal Reserve Notes.



Kennedy knew that if the silver-backed United States Notes were widely circulated, they would have eliminated the demand for Federal Reserve Notes. This is a very simple matter of economics. The USN was backed by silver and the FRN was not backed by anything of intrinsic value. Executive Order 11110 should have prevented the national debt from reaching its current level (virtually all of the nearly $9 trillion in federal debt has been created since 1963) if LBJ or any subsequent President were to enforce it. It would have almost immediately given the U.S. Government the ability to repay its debt without going to the private Federal Reserve Banks and being charged interest to create new "money". Executive Order 11110 gave the U.S.A. the ability to, once again, create its own money backed by silver and realm value worth something.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Yawn.



Sorry, got a little sleepy there.



I get easily bored by "cut and paste kamikazes"

 

[Josh Langel]

v ro,





You should at least cite your sources... here, I did it for you:



http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/thefederalreserve.htm