makes sence to me

[Fred]

There are many, many jobs that some Americans just won't do - some are just too damned lazy - regardless of the pay rate.

Someone USED to do them, before we shifted to paying

"Whoa, time to have another kid so I ain't gotta work" good fer nuthin's

to stay home and produce more leeches on society.



That has to stop too.



I can gut my own chickens. :lol:



Edited for rushed typing between meetings.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

There is one thing I can be certain of, without assumption, if nobody is allowed to get shitfaced in a bar, than the incidents of drunk driving will go down. There is a benefit to that, and as for illegal workers, it's a trade off that balances out to a positive benefit, IMHO. You don't agree with either of these, that's fine, so let's let it go.

 

[Tom Schindler]

There is one thing I can be certain of, without assumption, if nobody is allowed to get shitfaced in a bar, than the incidents of drunk driving will go down.

You don't have to be shitfaced to be considered a "drunk Driver". A limit of .08 or higher will get you a DUI. That is only 2 or three drinks...depending on your size.



I do know for a fact if you are working in the USA without a permit, you are breaking the law. You are not paying tax's to the state, local, and federal governments. You are placing a larger burdon on those that do the right thing and pay your Tax's.





Tom

 

[Jose Santana]

Just an FYI as a Native American/Hispanic American citizen... After Native Americans this country was founded by the SPANISH...... The southern parts of the US are SPANISH cultures with SPanish influence in every aspect and fiber of it's being, it has been like that since thias country was founded and it will remain like that. Stop looking at these cultures with such scorn and resentment,,,, look at your own better than thou attitude and adjust it as needed..,.... All I hear is this English only crap... which to me is BS... YES I do think we need to teach ENGLISH in our schools, but we also need to be accepting and open to our Spanish ancestery just like we are to our English ancestery, are these regions of the US supposed to just drop thier American heritage to accept your version of what it is to be an American? An All American to me is not a blond haired blue eyed white guy....Should they stop eating tamale's and rice and beans and start eating cornbeef and cabbage? I don't think soo and frankly it's insulting for people to think they should....... but JUST like Quebec Canada it is possible to have a Bilingual Country and be succesful but it needs to be accepted. It amazes me when I see everyone around here loving the Montreal thing... French signs, language and culture all alive and kicking, and those people would not give up that heritage and nor should they have to. So why do we want our Spanish culture to do just that?... The problem lies with not wanting to accept the fact that we are a bilingual nation of Spanish and English..... The sooner we get beyond that, then we can address the Immigration policies and fix them as needed...

 

[Gavin Allan]

Joseymack is right. The threat isn't the Hispanics. The threat is the inner-city folks who have no opportunities or motivation to learn to become self-sufficient, abide by our laws, and observe common human courtesies.



Of course in a few years we will all be learning Chinese anyway, so maybe this talk is a moot point.

 

[Bill V]

Good points, joseymack, with one caveat--We are not a bilingual nation. Large parts of our country ore monolingual, large parts are bilingual with the second language being something other than Spanish, and large parts are multilingual. Therefore, we shouldn't be trying to following Canada's approach, and declaring the entire country to be bilingual. There, it is my understanding that everyone is required to learn French in school--regardless of whether you live in Montreal (heavy French usage) or Edmonton (almost no French usage). That's ridiculous, and it would be ridiculous to have everyone here learn Spanish.



All children in US schools should learn English--not to homogenize the population, but to give them the best chance to succeed in the largest portion of our society. Beyond that, learn and speak what you want, where you want.

 

[Fer Echegaray]

Current immigration policies are largely unresponsive to the labor needs of the U.S. economy. As the U.S. work force ages and is better educated, there is a growing gap in industries that rely on low-skilled labor.



Last week, Sen. Dianne Feinstein staff asked welfare offices in every California county to post notices to register people for farm work, not a single applicant responded. If welfare offices posted job openings for car wash workers, hotel maids and restaurant dishwashers, they would not find many takers.



Will Mexican immigrants ever learn English and become "real" Americans? As third-generation Eastern Europeans know, the same question was asked about their grandparents. Now we are hearing some immigrant-descended parents asking the same things about current immigrants.



The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924"> Immigration Restriction Act of 1924 </a> was the eugenics movement of that time. Eugenicists, characterized by one historian as fearing that "the American gene pool was being polluted by a rising tide of intellectually and morally defective immigrants--primarily from Eastern and Southern Europe," played a significant role in ending the greatest era of immigration in U.S. history.



<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/04/27/BUGP8IFROV1.DTL">Do immigrants depress wages of native-born Americans?</a>

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen says:

I do know for a fact if you are working in the USA without a permit, you are breaking the law. You are not paying tax's to the state, local, and federal governments. You are placing a larger burdon on those that do the right thing and pay your Tax's.

Okay, Caymen, would you admit that IF these illegals were sent packing the jobs that they do today for lower wagers would most likely be filled by people who would require higher pay?



If you agree that is probable, than that means that if all illegals were deported than it is also LIKELY that you, I and everyone else would start paying more for the associated goods and services they helped to produce.



And, if you admit those increased costs are a distinct possibility in this scenario, then we should question if these increases would be higher than or lower than the cost to you and I that these illegals place on our society as a tax burden today, and conversely, if they were to be deported tomorrow, could we expect our tax burden to lessen (government seems to be able to figure out how to GROW, NOT SHRINK...reduce costs in one area and others increase in another to take up the slack).



That's the way I look at it, and I simply caution everyone to look at it the same way, not just to tout the crime in some emotional way.



Many are screaming to deport the illegals TODAY so that taxes and healthcare and education costs will go down. When, frankly, there is NO PROOF that they would go down, and even if they did, would the reduction OFFSET the rise in prices of goods and services that would hit you and I in the pocketbook?



We just don't know, frankly...at least I don't...DO YOU, DOES ANYONE?



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

If you are working illegal here, you are breking the law. End of discussion. If you need to hire those that work for low wages, so be it. There is a minimum wage set by the government. Look at McDonalds, Wendy's, Burger King, Taco Bell, and any other "fast food/minimum wage" place of employment. They have no problem hiring people.



An employer can help a non-citizen become a citizen. My last employer helped a guy become a citizen that way.





Tom

 

[Fred]

But if an employer helps an illegal become legal, then doesn't the employer lose the benefit that they are also gaining by breaking the law? The benefit of not giving the illegal person benefits like insurance, etc. Wouldn't the employer also start having to pay workers comp on that illegal person? These things make me think that most employers that hire illegals have no desire to help them become legal. I could be wrong, have been before.

 

[Fer Echegaray]

An employer can help a non-citizen become a citizen. My last employer helped a guy become a citizen that way.

I came to the USA in Jan. 2000 with an employment offer, started with an 'L' class visa, my wife and I became permanent residents in June 2002.

You are correct, but do you know how much it costs?

I doubt many small business would be able to pay that for a single employee, let alone several.



In my opinion, the government is too permissive and that allows people to abuse the system and get a free ride, either by getting welfare or using their US-born childs to get gov'nt assistance, although some are really working to pay for everyday living.



Are they here illegally?

Yes they are, but I think it is unrealistic to propose to round 'em all up and deport them (we're talking immigration from all over the world, not just south of the border). I think the services could be managed better, verified who deserves them and who's getting a free ride would be a start, but that takes money, which right now is being used in Iraq (no I don't want to start that debate)



The reality is that they are already here, and some more are trying to get here. And something needs to be done... With those that are here, and those that are trying to get here.



Look, I'm Mexican, and proud of it, but I'm also thankful for the oportunity the USA has given us to live here and eventually become citizens, we came out of personal safety reasons, not economics, IMHO, assimilation does not mean that I have to forget my origin and leave behind my culture, I believe that with learning the American culture, and embracing it, I can also enrich it with my own background, therein lies my truth: Add, do not replace... I hope I'm making sense...



Anyway, as I was saying, there must be a balance point, on which those who really work and are trying to learn English and the American culture deserve a chance, but those who don't want to be part of it and can go back, peacefully, I hope.



No matter what the congress comes up with, this debate is going to take years and the solution too...

Thanks for listening...

 

[Fred]

I believe that with learning the American culture, and embrasing it, I can also enrich it with my own background, therein lies my truth: Add, do not replace... I hope I'm making sense...

Perfect sense.

 

[Jose Santana]

Well said Fer..... Learning and embracing American culture is something we all must do. With that said some of these people here who call themselves Americans must too realize that AMERICAN culture includes - American Hispanic culture- and that too needs to be embraced and not obliterated and ignored as some would like. I am sick of the scorn and resentment towards it.

Forgive me for this statement.... but i think a lot of White people in this country truely feel it is thier country and everyone else just lives in it.... This is a country of mixed race and heritage. So although I agree we cannot cater to every nationality when it comes to language in this country, one thing I know is we cannot ignore the Spanish language as it is as American as English......

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Yes, Caymen, McDonald's and other large corps have no trouble hiring people at or slightly above minimum wage.



However, do you think we can find a lot of legal, documented workers that will accept jobs performing hard, manual labor, outside all day, under the sun, at those wage rates (again, at minimum wage or slightly higher)?



I think not!



It gets back to WHAT SHOULD these jobs pay? Look on many small construction sites, landscaping jobs, etc, and you find undocumented workers, doing jobs that I submit wouldn't be done by documented workers at that same rate, at least not in the numbers that the illegals are performing them.



And, if clamp down on small businesses and fine them to the point they no longer hired illegals, many small businesses would shut down, and others would raise their prices to the point that only the rich could hire them and buy their goods and services.



Read the link that Fer gave: "Do immigrants depress wages of native-born Americans?" It has a lot of good info.



It made a good point...it said it used to be only the RICH had landscapers, but now even Joe middle-class pays someone to take care of his lawn. He couldn't do that without illegals.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

One question to ponder:





Q: When does a society disregard and/or not enforce laws on the books?





Possibly when:



- The laws simply cannot be enforced



- Enforcing the law is political suicide



- Enforcing the law hurts/costs society more than not enforcing it



- The laws have become obsolete



Can anyone think of any other reasons?



So, we have laws on the books about hiring illegals and laws against being an illegal...why is it we don't enforce them?



Anyone?



TJR