Stores Opening on Thanksgiving Day
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I agree 100% !! stores should close on holidays and pay their employees for holiday pay. If the stores are so desperate for profits, they should not attempt to make that profit by infringing in the employees time with their families on a holiday.
I think the stores should ask employees who wants to work on the holiday for 1.5 or 2X their hourly rate. If there are enough people to warrant opening the doors, then fine, let those willing to work that day be the only employees who work. If they do not get enough employees to work that day, then the store should remain closed.
...Rich
I think the stores should ask employees who wants to work on the holiday for 1.5 or 2X their hourly rate. If there are enough people to warrant opening the doors, then fine, let those willing to work that day be the only employees who work. If they do not get enough employees to work that day, then the store should remain closed.
...Rich
EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
I agree with , Rich.......
Jacob Dryer
Well-Known Member
I worked at Best Buy for about 6 years.. That is the reason I hate the holidays..
Andy Chase
Well-Known Member
I used to work at Gander Mountain, they started to open Thanksgiving evening the last year that I worked there. Only select businesses should be open on major holidays like gas stations and entertainment venues/restaurants. I always thought if the grocery store is closed, so should other retail stores.
Robert Thomas
Well-Known Member
As one who worked the first 18 years of my career without a weekend or holiday off. I was told what my schedule would be. I was told what hours to work. I did not have the right or ability to decline overtime. I don't feel that I ever had a complaint, because this was the job I chose to do. I don't really see the complaint. If you go to work for a business or agency that opens or decides to open on a holiday you have the options to work or quit.
Who now decides if a business or agency should be open, the employees, the government, the consumer, the church, or a union? Should we establish a federal agency "Department of Businesses or Services allowed to open on Holidays? Why are workers at Gander Mountain better that workers at a entertainment venue? Should all federal and state agencies close on holidays? Does anyone realize that a federal holiday cost, us, $500 million a day just for federal employees.
Do away with all Federal and State Holidays.
The above is solely based on the fact that I am retired and holidays really screw up my day; no mail arrives, I can't go to the bank, or you can't buy beer.
:haveabeer:
Who now decides if a business or agency should be open, the employees, the government, the consumer, the church, or a union? Should we establish a federal agency "Department of Businesses or Services allowed to open on Holidays? Why are workers at Gander Mountain better that workers at a entertainment venue? Should all federal and state agencies close on holidays? Does anyone realize that a federal holiday cost, us, $500 million a day just for federal employees.
Do away with all Federal and State Holidays.
The above is solely based on the fact that I am retired and holidays really screw up my day; no mail arrives, I can't go to the bank, or you can't buy beer.
:haveabeer:
Redfish,
I certainly see your point and agree with you in part. There are many stores who traditionally have been open on holidays and employees should be aware of that.
In this case, Target stores have a long standing reputationf for closing on holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas...just as WalMart does. This seems to be a change from that tradition and I wonder how much of it is corporate greed, and the notion that employees should be gratefull that they have jobs, and would not protest?
I doubt that Target sells many items that would so urgently needed that they could not wait until Friday. It appears to me that they want to get a headstart on the Chrismas shoppers, and I already think most stores start selling Christmas items way too early as it is. The local Target store already had started to move Christmas trees and decorations on display before Halloween??
I know of some grocery stores that are open until about noon on Thanksgiving so customers can run in a pick up those items they may have forgotten.
I even know of a local appliance repair shop that is open every Thanksgiving morning. I talked to the owner and he said Thanksgiving morning is one of his busiest days when people who have not used their ovens turn them on to roast the turkey and find that they do not work...:cry: He claims he sells a lot of Electric Oven heating elements on Thanksgiving, so he stays open for the extra business and as a convenience for his customers.
When I grew up, all grocery stores, and department stores, etc, closed their doors a 6pm, and were always closed on Sundays and holidays...and many closed early on Christmas Eve.
I think there is a certain amount of convenience for the customers to have stores open longer hours, but I fear that most of open 24 hours stores, and staying open on holidays is more corporate greed than customer convenience.
...Rich
I certainly see your point and agree with you in part. There are many stores who traditionally have been open on holidays and employees should be aware of that.
In this case, Target stores have a long standing reputationf for closing on holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas...just as WalMart does. This seems to be a change from that tradition and I wonder how much of it is corporate greed, and the notion that employees should be gratefull that they have jobs, and would not protest?
I doubt that Target sells many items that would so urgently needed that they could not wait until Friday. It appears to me that they want to get a headstart on the Chrismas shoppers, and I already think most stores start selling Christmas items way too early as it is. The local Target store already had started to move Christmas trees and decorations on display before Halloween??
I know of some grocery stores that are open until about noon on Thanksgiving so customers can run in a pick up those items they may have forgotten.
I even know of a local appliance repair shop that is open every Thanksgiving morning. I talked to the owner and he said Thanksgiving morning is one of his busiest days when people who have not used their ovens turn them on to roast the turkey and find that they do not work...:cry: He claims he sells a lot of Electric Oven heating elements on Thanksgiving, so he stays open for the extra business and as a convenience for his customers.
When I grew up, all grocery stores, and department stores, etc, closed their doors a 6pm, and were always closed on Sundays and holidays...and many closed early on Christmas Eve.
I think there is a certain amount of convenience for the customers to have stores open longer hours, but I fear that most of open 24 hours stores, and staying open on holidays is more corporate greed than customer convenience.
...Rich
EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
My opinion is. If there is something a customer really wants or needs from a dept store. They will still buy it after the holiday.
I have been in a few dept stores on holidays'. The customers were bare bones and mostly browsing as I was.
IMO, give the employees' a choice and pay OT. There maybe some that need the money in this economy.
I worked in a chemical plant that ran 24/7. But I worked day shift and was off major holiday's. That involved family. Shift workers were well compensated. The company even allowed shift workers to trade a shift, if another was willing.
As for forcing empoyees to work in retail. On certain holidays', Im taking a phrase for the old Mad Magazine.
" Is Nonthing Sacred " :sad:
Robert Thomas
Well-Known Member
Still not sure who should make the decision on what I need on Holidays. It seems that someone has decided that entertainment is a my need and a pair of shoes isn't.
Lots of interesting definitions on "Corporate Greed". The one I like best is "a political term used to get votes".
A couple of weeks ago they overturned the Blue law in this county to allow beer sales on Sunday morning. Good for me since I like to do the food shopping early on Sunday (no crowds) for the week. Now I don't have to make a second trip.
Always wondered why you can't duck hunt on Sunday?
Lots of interesting definitions on "Corporate Greed". The one I like best is "a political term used to get votes".
A couple of weeks ago they overturned the Blue law in this county to allow beer sales on Sunday morning. Good for me since I like to do the food shopping early on Sunday (no crowds) for the week. Now I don't have to make a second trip.
Always wondered why you can't duck hunt on Sunday?
Redfish,
The ducks are all in church..:bwahaha:
We cannot buy Beer or Wine before noon on Sunday...Why? What's the purpose of Blue Laws.
As for who's decision is it as to what you need on a holiday should probably be based on necessity. Hospitals, police, fire departments should be opened and properly staffed. I can understand where gas stations would remain open because people are driving to grandma's, or truckers are trying to get home, etc. In my opinion, food stores, department stores, and the majority of the other stores that stay open now, should probably close.
Some restaurants will remain open because where there are travelers, there are people who need to eat. Entertainment venues like movie theaters is kind of a toss up. Most people do not go to the movies during the week and the only time they have to go is on their days off, be it a week end, or holiday. I personally have never gone to a movie on a holiday, but I know some who do.
Most businesses where I have worked will typically give Thanksgiving day off, and the following Friday...In fact most of the best places I worked stressed putting Family before the Job. They were not anal about working holidays, working overtime, or hiring workaholics. Of course they expected you to get your work done even if that called for occasionally staying late or coming in on week ends...but that was your decision, not the company's.
Of course there is a big difference when working hourly vs salaried....All of my jobs have been salaried and I never had to punch a time clock, but I also worked for some poorly managed companies who wanted salaried employees to document everything they did each day just to justify their positions?...I think it was so executives could justify their positions...:grin:
...Rich
The ducks are all in church..:bwahaha:
We cannot buy Beer or Wine before noon on Sunday...Why? What's the purpose of Blue Laws.
As for who's decision is it as to what you need on a holiday should probably be based on necessity. Hospitals, police, fire departments should be opened and properly staffed. I can understand where gas stations would remain open because people are driving to grandma's, or truckers are trying to get home, etc. In my opinion, food stores, department stores, and the majority of the other stores that stay open now, should probably close.
Some restaurants will remain open because where there are travelers, there are people who need to eat. Entertainment venues like movie theaters is kind of a toss up. Most people do not go to the movies during the week and the only time they have to go is on their days off, be it a week end, or holiday. I personally have never gone to a movie on a holiday, but I know some who do.
Most businesses where I have worked will typically give Thanksgiving day off, and the following Friday...In fact most of the best places I worked stressed putting Family before the Job. They were not anal about working holidays, working overtime, or hiring workaholics. Of course they expected you to get your work done even if that called for occasionally staying late or coming in on week ends...but that was your decision, not the company's.
Of course there is a big difference when working hourly vs salaried....All of my jobs have been salaried and I never had to punch a time clock, but I also worked for some poorly managed companies who wanted salaried employees to document everything they did each day just to justify their positions?...I think it was so executives could justify their positions...:grin:
...Rich
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Employers should be able to be open whenever they want. However, they should do what is right by their employees as well. So, if some employees won't work for double time, well, then see if they will work for tripple time, or quadruple time. Or, find some temporary/contract employees that will work on that day for whatever the employer is willing to pay and pay them to be trained a few days before the holiday. Put simply, pay to stay open.
Bottom line: If there really is big money to be had by being open on a holiday, then compensate accordingly and it that all becomes too big a hassle or cost, well, then stay closed.
TJR
Bottom line: If there really is big money to be had by being open on a holiday, then compensate accordingly and it that all becomes too big a hassle or cost, well, then stay closed.
TJR
TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
Richard L said:
So if even if the stores are closed, they should still pay their employees "holiday pay" (i.e. typically time and a half) for not working on said holidays? Just want to be sure that I understand the above statement...
Richard L said:
What's your definition of "corporate greed"?
Redfish said:
Exactly. It's called <A HREF="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/demagoguery">demagoguery</A>. The phrase "corporate greed" is no different than the phrase "excess profits". What right do you, me, or gov't have to determine how much profit a company can earn before any more becomes "excess", or the profit point above which earning anything else would deem a corporation "greedy"? Last time I checked my copy of the Constitution, I could find no such right guaranteed within it.
Target's decision to open at midnight on Black Friday (not actually on Thanksgiving Day) is just a sign of the current economic times. In an ever-more competitive retail market where ever-more frugal consumers have a multitude of options about where to spend their money, Target must continue to seek ways to remain profitable (as they're beholden to do so by their shareholders). So opening a little earlier is just another competitive tactic. Hell, in the past several years, most retailers have already been opening at three, four, five, or six in the morning on Black Friday anyway.
They're just trying to compete with other retailers that are opening earlier, not to mention online retailers like Amazon, Overstock.com, and others who will be offering Black Friday specials beginning at midnight.
So if you are a consumer who disagrees with this, don't shop at Target. If there aren't enough shoppers in the stores during these early hours to make a profit, the perhaps Target won't open this early next year.
If you work there, <A HREF="http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#en|fr|That%27s%20life%20in%20retail.">"C'est la vie en detail"</A>. How is it any different for Target employees and their families than those who work at gas stations, movie theaters, restaurants, etc., that are traditionally open on Thanksgiving day? At least the Target employees will get to spend the day with their families. Employees of the aforementioned businesses will have to work possibly all day Thursday. I don't see any public outcry or "petition" against those types of businesses being open on Thanksgiving Day, Christmas, or any other holiday... Are gas stations, movie theaters, restaurants, etc. that have been traditionally open on holidays "guilty" of "corporate greed" too? I guess not, because folks still want to be able to go get their smokes, go to a movie after stuffing themselves full of turkey, or even go out to eat for Thanksgiving day rather than cooking at home.:banghead:
We had a saying in the Navy: "Choose your rate, choose your fate.":boohoo:
So if even if the stores are closed, they should still pay their employees "holiday pay" (i.e. typically time and a half) for not working on said holidays? Just want to be sure that I understand the above statement...
Richard L said:
and
What's your definition of "corporate greed"?
Redfish said:
Exactly. It's called <A HREF="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/demagoguery">demagoguery</A>. The phrase "corporate greed" is no different than the phrase "excess profits". What right do you, me, or gov't have to determine how much profit a company can earn before any more becomes "excess", or the profit point above which earning anything else would deem a corporation "greedy"? Last time I checked my copy of the Constitution, I could find no such right guaranteed within it.
Target's decision to open at midnight on Black Friday (not actually on Thanksgiving Day) is just a sign of the current economic times. In an ever-more competitive retail market where ever-more frugal consumers have a multitude of options about where to spend their money, Target must continue to seek ways to remain profitable (as they're beholden to do so by their shareholders). So opening a little earlier is just another competitive tactic. Hell, in the past several years, most retailers have already been opening at three, four, five, or six in the morning on Black Friday anyway.
They're just trying to compete with other retailers that are opening earlier, not to mention online retailers like Amazon, Overstock.com, and others who will be offering Black Friday specials beginning at midnight.
So if you are a consumer who disagrees with this, don't shop at Target. If there aren't enough shoppers in the stores during these early hours to make a profit, the perhaps Target won't open this early next year.
If you work there, <A HREF="http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#en|fr|That%27s%20life%20in%20retail.">"C'est la vie en detail"</A>. How is it any different for Target employees and their families than those who work at gas stations, movie theaters, restaurants, etc., that are traditionally open on Thanksgiving day? At least the Target employees will get to spend the day with their families. Employees of the aforementioned businesses will have to work possibly all day Thursday. I don't see any public outcry or "petition" against those types of businesses being open on Thanksgiving Day, Christmas, or any other holiday... Are gas stations, movie theaters, restaurants, etc. that have been traditionally open on holidays "guilty" of "corporate greed" too? I guess not, because folks still want to be able to go get their smokes, go to a movie after stuffing themselves full of turkey, or even go out to eat for Thanksgiving day rather than cooking at home.:banghead:
We had a saying in the Navy: "Choose your rate, choose your fate.":boohoo:
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TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
Moreover, perhaps those Target employees who are upset about this should really consider those folks "on watch" at sea, in the desert and elsewhere around the world, and right here at home at U.S. military bases on Thanksgiving day - defending their rights and keeping them safe!:soap:
And I know, with an all-volunteer Armed Forces, "Choose your rate, choose your fate" could apply here also. But much like nobody forced us to join the military, no one is being forced to work at Target either.
And I know, with an all-volunteer Armed Forces, "Choose your rate, choose your fate" could apply here also. But much like nobody forced us to join the military, no one is being forced to work at Target either.
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Robert Thomas
Well-Known Member
"Your paid to stop a bullet. It's a soldiers job they say, and so you stop the bullet. Then they stop your pay. Should I write a letter to my congressman. A congressman has two ends, a sitting and a thinking. His whole success depends on his seat. So why bother friend."
This came back into my head. I think it's from a 60's song.
This came back into my head. I think it's from a 60's song.
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TrainTrac,
My typo....If Employees are made to work, they should be paid 1.5X or 2X their hourly rate. If they are given off, they should still be paid they regular hourly rate if the employer normally pays for holidays (some don't) Opening at Midnight on Friday is just a way of dodging the issue of holiday pay...why don't them pay shift-differential? I doubt that any hired employee was informed that they would have to work the graveyard shift at Target
Forcing employees to work on holidays or midnight shifts for non-essential services...In this case it is Target forcing employees to work an odd holiday schedule for non-essential services and only to gain early sales prior to Black Friday.
The difference is that employees who work at gas stations, restaurants, and movie theaters are more essential services traditionally open on holidays, and the employees are aware that they work different shifts and on holidays. I have never seen a Target store open at midnight if they decided to do this, they could have asked for volunteers to work that shift...I'm sure they would have gotten some people who have no problems....Instead they chose to force the issue on the employees.... There are people who have traditional Thanksgivings where they drive 500 miles to grandma's house for a family reunion...Target does not appear to care about their employees, just making a profit at the expense of their employees.
One of the biggest complaint of employees is that their employers are shuffling their schedules, making last minute changes, scheduling long hours or they have no regards for their employees time off with their families. These are actions of despirate companies in a panic to show a profit...and then they wonder why they cannot keep quality employees??
Redfish,
The military draft ended almost 40 years ago, but the military has always been based on a very strict Authoritarian management style. That's necessary in nearly all life threatening occupations including police, firefighters, Paramedics, ER/Trama centers, Operating rooms, etc. You must follow orders without question or someone may die or be severely injured. The person in charge is responsible to get the job done and does not have time to argue or discuss your opinions. To insure you will always follow orders, you must comply with orders even when there is no present danger or life threatening situation....That's part of the training.
....Rich
My typo....If Employees are made to work, they should be paid 1.5X or 2X their hourly rate. If they are given off, they should still be paid they regular hourly rate if the employer normally pays for holidays (some don't) Opening at Midnight on Friday is just a way of dodging the issue of holiday pay...why don't them pay shift-differential? I doubt that any hired employee was informed that they would have to work the graveyard shift at Target
Forcing employees to work on holidays or midnight shifts for non-essential services...In this case it is Target forcing employees to work an odd holiday schedule for non-essential services and only to gain early sales prior to Black Friday.
The difference is that employees who work at gas stations, restaurants, and movie theaters are more essential services traditionally open on holidays, and the employees are aware that they work different shifts and on holidays. I have never seen a Target store open at midnight if they decided to do this, they could have asked for volunteers to work that shift...I'm sure they would have gotten some people who have no problems....Instead they chose to force the issue on the employees.... There are people who have traditional Thanksgivings where they drive 500 miles to grandma's house for a family reunion...Target does not appear to care about their employees, just making a profit at the expense of their employees.
One of the biggest complaint of employees is that their employers are shuffling their schedules, making last minute changes, scheduling long hours or they have no regards for their employees time off with their families. These are actions of despirate companies in a panic to show a profit...and then they wonder why they cannot keep quality employees??
Redfish,
The military draft ended almost 40 years ago, but the military has always been based on a very strict Authoritarian management style. That's necessary in nearly all life threatening occupations including police, firefighters, Paramedics, ER/Trama centers, Operating rooms, etc. You must follow orders without question or someone may die or be severely injured. The person in charge is responsible to get the job done and does not have time to argue or discuss your opinions. To insure you will always follow orders, you must comply with orders even when there is no present danger or life threatening situation....That's part of the training.
....Rich
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I think Target carries more essential items than a movie theater.
My opinion, though: if it's truly repulsive to people, Target will lose money by opening those hours. The market will decide this just fine. Just as the market requires some gas stations to stay open and grocery stores. Not all gas stations or grocery stores stay open for holidays, though. To paint stores as either victims of the economy or greedy is off-base in my opinion. Just another fact of American life and the consumerism-driven holiday season.
My opinion, though: if it's truly repulsive to people, Target will lose money by opening those hours. The market will decide this just fine. Just as the market requires some gas stations to stay open and grocery stores. Not all gas stations or grocery stores stay open for holidays, though. To paint stores as either victims of the economy or greedy is off-base in my opinion. Just another fact of American life and the consumerism-driven holiday season.
Robert Thomas
Well-Known Member
Richard
If Target decides to open and also decides to give all of the profit, on that day, to the employees as a holiday bonus. Is the company still guilty of corporate greed?
If Target's yearly profits are down and they for see layoff if they don't open are they guilty of corporate greed? If they just decide to layoff instead of saving the employees jobs are they guilty of corporate greed.
You give a good example of what you think "Corporate Greed" is based on your interpretation of required services. Should "Corporate Greed", under your example be a federal crime with a list of only required services that can be provided on holidays? Much like you Sunday Blue Law.
If Target decides to open and also decides to give all of the profit, on that day, to the employees as a holiday bonus. Is the company still guilty of corporate greed?
If Target's yearly profits are down and they for see layoff if they don't open are they guilty of corporate greed? If they just decide to layoff instead of saving the employees jobs are they guilty of corporate greed.
You give a good example of what you think "Corporate Greed" is based on your interpretation of required services. Should "Corporate Greed", under your example be a federal crime with a list of only required services that can be provided on holidays? Much like you Sunday Blue Law.
TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
Richard L,
Thanks for the clarification on the first part. If it was indeed the way I read/interpreted it, then sign me up for that company!:grin:
As for:
If you read the entire article, it states that employees are to report at 2300 on Thursday, so s-d pay may indeed be in effect. We don't know for sure.
And regarding:
Nobody's being "forced" to work at Target. But you're exactly right when you say "to gain early sales prior to Black Friday", and Hugh's spot-on in saying that it's market-driven. This is exactly how a free-market economy should work. As I said earlier, Target's just trying to get the jump on competitors who open at 3, 4, 5am, and so on. If it's found that opening at midnight wasn't profitable, then they aren't likely to continue the practice in the future.
Redfish said:
I was referring to today's all-volunteer forces. Nobody currently "on watch" was drafted/conscripted into service.
Thanks for the clarification on the first part. If it was indeed the way I read/interpreted it, then sign me up for that company!:grin:
As for:
If you read the entire article, it states that employees are to report at 2300 on Thursday, so s-d pay may indeed be in effect. We don't know for sure.
And regarding:
Nobody's being "forced" to work at Target. But you're exactly right when you say "to gain early sales prior to Black Friday", and Hugh's spot-on in saying that it's market-driven. This is exactly how a free-market economy should work. As I said earlier, Target's just trying to get the jump on competitors who open at 3, 4, 5am, and so on. If it's found that opening at midnight wasn't profitable, then they aren't likely to continue the practice in the future.
Redfish said:
I was referring to today's all-volunteer forces. Nobody currently "on watch" was drafted/conscripted into service.
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