Support your president, he needs all the help he can get.

[Nelson Atwell]

Those debit cards were only given out in the AstroDome in Houston for a few days. The experiment was canceled before it was offered to any other locations due to logistical problems.



This debate lasted far longer than the program that generated it. :blink:

 

[Dale Carter]

TJR - Chris Rock is hilarious. They might not be able to drive their SUV to a nice hotel, but they could have gotten on a New Orleans RTA bus that weekend and been taken to safety, the buses were running (according to a man I met from Slidell). When the water is gone, I wonder how many cars will be parked next to those houses that people were rescued from the roofs? I will bet thousands.



The tax refund that I received was my money, not someone elses, so no restrictions would be appropriate. If the people we are talking about are as poor and ill equipped as they seem to be from this discussion, the $ 2000 was my money too. After all, 50+% of the US does not pay Federal income tax.



Of course, the liberals on this board will see no difference between the two situations.

 

[John Mastrocco]

I will just repeat:



There has to be some way to prepare for a disaster of this magnitude without having to wait for it to happen.



Shek,

I didn't say those that will supply the response should be put in harm's way. But surely things could already be in motion so when the disaster does strike the response is as close to immediate as humanly possible?



And I also know the law prevents this from happening AT THIS TIME. But the law should be changed to allow what I said - the response should begin in anticipation of the event, not after the event.

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

Darin-



Nixon may or may not have been impeached, we'll never know. Unfortuneately the Watergate stuff ruinedhis reputation and the fact aht he was actually a decent presidnet.

100 years from now, the only thing Bush will be remembered for is being the president in office during the 09/11 attacks. He pales in comparison to the greats of the past 100 years, T. Roosevelt, FDR, Truman, Kennedy and Reagan.

Let me remind you that the Leftists out there never thought that Reagan would be remembered for being a good president, but rather a joke that the citizens would elect an Actor as president. They swore up and down that he was going to be the end of the world. They swore up and down that his economic policies were going to doom the american people. They swore up and down that his environmental policies were going to kill us even if the Russians didn't within 20 years.... that was 20 years ago. The same will happen with Bush, I'd bet on it.



However, if there is another large-scale terrorist attack, especially if the attackers come across the Mexican border, things may be different. These are differnt times than they were for Roosevelt, Truman, etc.



Oh, BTW, if you look at strictly facts, Truman and Kennedy were pretty much worthless. Kennedy did ONE good thing and that was stare down the Russians in Cuba. Tuman... well his liberal policies have lead us to some of the problems we have today. Good at the time? Maybe (debateable, but some other time). Good now? :wacko:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen says:

Those people need a new place to live, new clothing, food, etc. They should not be allowed to spend it anyway they want. They shouuld spend it in the things I mentioned above and not for a new XBox or Play Station. They do not need the money to buy alcohol or tobacco or even lottery tickets. They need to rebuild thier lives. Last time I checked, I don't need anything to live besides gas for my car, food for my belly, clothes on my back, and a place to live. Nobody needs an XBox, TV, CD's, DVD's, or anything like that to live. They need a home, food, water, clothing, etc.

Now who is being naive? Caymen, others, you guys have totally missed one of my subtle points. Complaining about how they can use their money is pointless. That's right, it's THEIR money, not yours.



Why do I say it's THEIR money...because 30 or 40 years of entitlement programs have brought up several generations in that area and others in the country such that the main source of income is from the government and social programs. That is why you see the Mom with 6 kids wondering "who is going to take care of my babies".



We have been giving to many of these people all their lives, with few strings attached to buy whatever they wanted and live however they want. When I say few strings attached, we didn't setup programs that assured they made good decisions, and did helpful things that would make the assistance a temporary "hand-up", not a generational "hand-out".



Now, when these people have been displaced, it seems its time to give them $2000 and some tough love and say "no PSP or beer for you!"



A few decades too late my friends, and not appropriate timing, IMHO.



Get them back on their feet and through this disaster, THEN let's talk about how we should perform some real social program re-engineering.



The govt and its social programs of the past several decades created this entitlement mentality, and the govt, through the will of the people, can change to remove it. But realize that this entitlement mentality started long ago and we aren't going to change it overnight.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

dale carter says:

The tax refund that I received was my money, not someone elses, so no restrictions would be appropriate. If the people we are talking about are as poor and ill equipped as they seem to be from this discussion, the $ 2000 was my money too. After all, 50+% of the US does not pay Federal income tax.

You and Caymen just don't get it with regards to the tax refund. You both say that doesn't apply because that was "YOUR MONEY".



Well, to these evacuees, that $2000 is THEIR MONEY. Given their way of thinking caused by decades of social programs, their income comes from the govt. THEY are entitled, it is THEIR money!



Until you and others recognize that given their mindset that $2000 to them and that welfare check each month is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT than the paycheck you work hard for, from an entitlement standpoint.



That's the fundamental problem! We have to change hearts and minds on both sides.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

TJR,



Maybe if the government finally stood up and said "this money is to be used for _____" people would not look at it as "thier money".



The point is, if there was no disaster, they would not be getting a dime. Since the money would be given to them to be used to rebuild thier lives, the government MUST be allowed to stipulate what the money is to be used for. The money is given to rebuild lives. It isn't a "gift" from the government as a way to stimulate the economy. It is to rebuild lives.



There might not have to pay it back, but they must use it for the purpose of rebuilding lives. That was what the money was for.



I know where you are coming from. I understand it totally. Being somethat grew up in a neighborhood that is full of gangs, drug dealers, prostitutes, etc. Being the only "white boy" in my school, etc. I have seen too many handouts that are never used for the purpse they were ment to do. Those people have thier fun then open thier hands back ut and say "Please help me". By making them buy the things needed to rebuild thier lives, they are getting the help they need. If it does not help them that way, then they deserve to starve to death.



It must stop and it must stop now!!!



Some may think it is too late, IMO it is never too late. Plain and simple.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Righto, Caymen, I agree with everything you say. So, how do we get our govt to stop/change these social programs that are creating a permanent lower-class that have this since of entitlement?



How about:



School vouchers?



Busing of inner-city kids to suburban schools?



Low-income, subsidized housing in affluent suburbs?



TJR

 

[Dale Carter]

TJR - I get it, but I am nor debating one of them, I am debating an intelligent and, probably, hard working self supporting person. I agree that their mindset says it is no different. Doesn't make it morally, ethically or factually true. We agree about the mindset though.



School vouchers? - Great idea, for the kids whose parents are motivated to improve their lives. Probably wouldn't help the Entitlement Slaves which we are discussing.



Bussing? Already tried that.



Low income housing in affluent neighborhoods? HUD Section 8 housing already exists, usually in the form of subsidized rent. Should have seen what happened to the complex where I lived when that happened. It used to be nice, it is now a slum. Same thing happens to neighborhoods with Section 8 houses. The new residents don't rise to the level of the new neighborhood, they drag it down to their level.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Okay, then, Dale, what ideas do you have? Can't just piss in the wind on this one. ;-)



I think housing can work, but not as it has been done before. If you create a BRICK CITY complex in the middle of the burbs and put bars on it, etc. don't be surprised if the ZOO you created breeds animals.



What about plunking a family at a time, RIGHT IN the middle-upper-class developments; you know, the ones with the covenants that read like:



- no metal swingsets

- no work vehicles

- no campers, rvs, or boats

- no more than 3 licensed vehicles

- no unlicensed vehicles

- no flag poles

- no above ground swimming pools

- no privacy fences

- no picket fences

- no metal sheds

- no dog runs or kennels



....on and on...



Would that help?



(tongue firmly placed in cheek)



TJR

 

[Dale Carter]

TJR - did you see the article in the London times today that addresses this very point? I have a feeling you would like it. Tounge in cheek from you so I am bettign that we agree on more than we disagree, but I have a few thoughts



First - school choice for everyone



Second - School administrator pay based on performance of students on SAT's



Third - No student allowed to participate in any extracurriciular activity without a "C" average or higher. At my school ANY "D" suspended that student from athletics until the next report card six weeks later and we were on a 7 point scale, so a D was a 77 and an F was a 68)



Fourth - Education in economics, investment and why pawn shops, credit cards and financing a set of 22's for five years for your Caprice is a bad idea.



Fifth - no social promotions and segregate violent and anti-social students from the good kids



Sixth - Drop the approach that we must build "self-esteem". Teach them to accomplish something real (academics, sports, shop skills, public service) and self esteem will take care of itself.



Seventh - eliminate tenure at ALL levels of education



Eight - set up night/weekend classes with open enrollment for the parents



Ninth - Parents/guardians attend PTA/PTO or the kid doesn't pass. If night work schedules conflict with PTO night, meet the teachers during the day. If you can't handle that, don't have a kid.



Tenth - do not lower the standards so the little darlings can graduate. Does it make sense to anyone that a student is allowed to graduate the 12th grade, if they read on a 9th grade level?



This is just for education.



Housing - Section 8 is not the brick fortress housing projects that we both agree are total failures. The apartment complex in which I lived was in the 2nd most affluent section of our city, with the 2nd best schools. Our high school routinely places students in the Ivy League and features the finest facilities and extracurricular activities possible. The sports teams (boys and girls) are perennial state championship contenders and the parents are among the most educated and affluent in the state. The system attracts the best teachers through competitive pay and exceptional facilities. The school was surrounded by covenanted developments you described. It seems that it was too late to change some of those behaviours, but that can be addressed through better education.



Culture - I don't think there is a lot that I can do about a culture that idolizes Eminem and Kanye West and not Bill Gates, Clarence Thomas and Condoleeza Rice. Until low income people embrace the desire to improve themselves through education and hard work, as did previous generations of low income people, they are doomed. The fast buck, bling bling big pimpin' culture will doom them. This applies to both urban and rural poor. Please don't assume that I am talking in terms of black and white, the so called hip-hop culture is as big among suburban and rural white youth as it is the inner city black kid. After all, Puffy and 50 Cent didn't sell that many albums to just 13% of the country.



I can go on, but these are a start.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

I will have to read that article. I like your ideas, but Liberals will never allow them to be reality. It all flys in the face of political correctness, it places more responsibility on individuals, and makes the govt less a factor in your well-being. It will never happen (tongue still firmly planted in cheek).



TJR

 

[Fred]

Until low income people embrace the desire to improve themselves through education and hard work, as did previous generations of low income people, they are doomed.

They won't embrace the desire as long as they keep getting their free housing, checks and food stamps, no questions asked.

 

[Bill V]

Dale--



Are you serious? After all your hot air about people needing to take responsibility for themselves and their kids--you now want the better students (which typically means "better families") to be able to transfer to the better schools, leaving the poorer performing students ("poorer (not necessarily financially) families") at the poorer performing schools? (Yes, I know you said that school choice would be open to everyone--but let's face it, demand will exceed supply, so the better schools will be able to pick off the cream of the crop, causing the better schools to only get better while the poorer schools only get poorer.) That policy alone is going to DRASTICALLY affect SAT scores. And you now say that how well a teacher or adminstrator gets paid should now be affected by that? Come on! How would you like your pay to be determined by something that is this out of your control?



Such a practice would cause all the teachers to want to be at those best schools as well, and once again, those schools will be able to pick the cream of the crop. So now you have all the top teachers only teaching the top students (the ones least in need of the top teachers), while all the dregs of the teaching world will only be teaching the dregs of the students (the ones in most need of the top teachers). The result: the problems that you're claiming these changes would help, only become worse.



How about instead reversing this? Provide the financial incentive for those top teachers to go in and tackle the challenge of working with the poorest-performing schools. Base their pay not on "performance", but on "improvement". Pay teachers who take a school from a 600 SAT average to a 900 SAT average higher than those who take a 1300 average to a 1320. They're the ones that are really making things happen in the education world. I'm far more impressed with a teacher who takes a 16 year old with a 3rd grade reading ability and gets him to an 8th grade reading ability in under a year and gives him an appetite for education, than one who takes a Merit Scholar kid and gets him into an Ivy League school.

 

[Dale Carter]

Bill V -

I fail to see where I contradicted my previous "hot air" regarding personal responsibility. Nice gratuitous insult.



Your absolutely right, competition is a horrible idea. Much better that all of the people be forced into a school based on the housing that they can afford rather than voucher aided tuition. The good schools in the good part of town ALREADY get the cream of the crop, how will it be any different? Oh yeah, the MOTIVATED poor kids can escape to a GOOD school. How totally unfair of me. I'm such an elitist jackass by wanting the opportunity for those underserved kids.



Financial incentive is fine, but how much would you have to pay a teacher at a nice suburban public school or parochial/private school to go to work in a war zone where they might be raped or murdered? How much to move from a nice city to a rural area without restaraunts and movies?



What about the financial incentive to the poor schools? Perhaps fear of job loss would motivate some people to innovate? It has been done in those areas before. Schools faced with losing federal funding on a per student basis would innovate or die.



Regarding impressive teachers, which is harder to improve a Ford Fiesta or a Mercedes S500? That last few percent of improvement is every bit as impressive from the teachers point of view. I am impressed by any teacher who inspires and improves a student.

 

[John Mastrocco]

So, despite all those that seem to think the Feds acted the only way they could, it seems there were mistakes made after all. Not all at the Fed level, but the Fed did make mistakes.



And for those that said it couldn't have been done any better - heard they were already mobilizing the National Guard in SC/NC in case the new hurricane makes landfall. They CAN prepare for it in advance. And hopefully the whole system has learned a lesson and will do it at least close to right (it is the Government, after all) from this point forward.

 

[Dale Carter]

Rocco - agreed that mistakes were made on all levels, even the President agrees witht hat statement.



I think the governors of SC and NC may have learned something from LA and MS. Like ask for the military BEFORE the storm hits!



Anybody see the CNN footage of Gov Blanco talking to her aide and saying that she should have asked for the military before Wednesday? Meaning the Wednesday AFTER the hurricane. She was "off" the air, but the satellite feed was still up while she waited on another interview. Odd that she still doesn't seem to realize that she has the power to activate the LA Nat Gaurd without any other assistance. I feel for that woman, but people died becasue she didn't know what to do.

 

[John Mastrocco]

No doubt about it Dale - it was not the finest hour of government at any level before, during or after Katrina. But the first step to fixing the problem is recognizing there is a problem and it seems that is being done.



That's the greatest thing about humans - we do know how to learn from our mistakes.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Newsweek has an interesting article about the whole Katrina screw up.



President Bush does not watch the news on TV and he doesn't read Newspapers. Unless someone in his staff tells him what is going on, he doesn't have a clue.



Pretty interesting article. It goes on about how the satallite phones in the NO area died, the mayor calling the whitehouse begging to talk to the president and getting the run around, Bush choosing to give a speech about the war in Iraq and how good of a job he is doing and ignoring the whole Katrina incident.



The article did not seem like it was Bush bashing one bit. It was just relaying the facts.





Tom

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

Wow... We are all comming to an agreement on things... God help Satan as he skates to work in the morning....:lol::lol:



Dale-

I like you theories on schooling. I couln't have said it better myself.



Rocco-

Yep all branches made mistakes. Finger pointing by any/all is highly hypocritical on their part. Imagine what would happen if all those involved admitted that they screwed up and took the blame for their portion of the fiasco.



Bush did that somewhat. I'm still waiting on Blanco (even with her satillite confessional) and Nevin et al to do something even close to the same.