the 10 most american cars

[Andy Chase]

I didn't get a chance to reread the article today, but see I was wrong with that assumption. That could be why they were ranked higher than. The article maybe could've been a little clearer and listed the Percentage of parts made in the U.S. and maybe how many American workers actually work on the car.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen said:

Odds are, the BMW is assembled with parts imported from Germany or they are 99% American and according to Gary, that is less than 80%. He already knows that 90% is less than 80% and 75%.

Sarcasm is the recourse of a weak mind.



Instead of sarcastically jabbing people, why not try first to understand?



When Rich said:

Simple logic tells me that if 90% of Ford parts are made in the USA while Toyota and Honda only have 80% and 75% respectively, then they are getting a higher rating for operating two factory vs Fords single factory....and that makes perfect sense to me, but they could have explained it a little better.

...I took that to mean that Rich assumed that the authors of the article gave a higher weighting to the number of domestic factories employed and a lower rating to the aggregate related to the country of origin of parts in a car when coming up with their ratings.



That's what I thought Rich meant. If that is what he meant, it makes sense. I recognize that it gives those that would wish to dismiss the article the ammunition to do just that because they think in narrow terms and grasp as specific words rather than the full context of what is said.



TJR

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

Very astute of you!



Yes, that was an assumption on my part based on the fact that Toyota ranked number one while actually having fewr American-made parts than Ford. And since the artilce stated that the rankings were based on the number of American-made parts and "Where they're built" the rankings had to be swayed heavily towards the number of American Workers who were directly or indirectly involved in the assembly of the car.



Of course now we have to asume that the assembly line workers were Americans and not illegal aliens...That would skew the results...:bwahaha:



...Rich

 

[Tom Schindler]

Sarcasm is the recourse of a weak mind.

And this thread is proof why we did not make the minimum people required for the ST meet. Thank goodness for the unknown donor that funded the rest to make it happen. This website is full of has been owners that do nothing but cause trouble and talk crap all day.



You guys win!





Tom

 

[EddieS'04]

Tom,, What I think is some dont read our fact or opinion, and leave it at that. We constantly get questioned. Even when your statement is pererctly understandable. if it is an opinion I dont need to justtify it. Cause that is what it is an opinion.



If you notice it. Your perfecly understanable statement, on what you believe or think about an issue. It gets turned into a 200 word essay. Usually under the pretense of they dont understand, explain yourself. When you do explain then you add to back up your belief or opinion. That gets gets another 200 word essay, back at you. Asking you to explain your self some more. BS, It is nothing more than a vicous circle of too many words. Used to get you to change your mind and think the way the essay writers do.



That is why I eventually step out of some threads. Too many words or what I call an essay asking me to repeat myself over and over. I beleive my most of what I say is fairly clear. I dont need to write a full page reply. Under the pretense that I dont understand your point.



Truthfully if I had thought it thru. I could have made my point with fewer words, in this reply.



Tom, when you said you guys win, thats not true. Nobody wins when it gets turned into a battle of word witt. Inlayman terms. I think there is a biblical proverb, about a man that uses too many words. Only brings foolish ruin on himself.



Well Im going back to bed. I was having back and leg pain. So I got up for awhile.

 

[Richard L]

EddieS'04,

You are allowed to freely express your opinion here and that allows others to disagree. If it is stictly your opinion and your opinion is in the minority of the members, then you should expect disagreement. If you chose to defend your opinion then you should be prepared with facts or at least some first hand experience to support your opinion.



If you make statements that you claim are facts then you should be ready to prove they are indeed facts from a reliable source. If you base your opinion on a friends experience, then you really don't have any experience and your opinion is baseless.



Because some people here like to separate the wheat from the chaffe, does not mean that you should take offense because someone does not agree with your or does not understand your position...That's what debating is all about. The feeble minded people who cannot explain the rational behind their opinions resort to name calling and personal attacks, and quickly duck for cover and deny they said or did anything wrong. Then they wonder why others badger them for answers or appologies.



There are a number of long-standing members of this website who have been here when the site first started....Until Todd Z says that non-sport Trac owners are no longer welcomed here I intend to continue to stop by and post to any thread I care to, whether you like it or not.



And we have nothing to do with why the minimum number of people did not sign-up for the National meet in Lousville this year. I was a sponsor and went to every meet for the first five or six years and even made donations of money, prizes, and time to make them sucessful. What have you done for this site, besides whine and complain?



...Rich

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Eddie,



Could this be what you are thinking of:

Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.



- Proverbs 17:28

I don't own an ST anymore. I won't be going to an ST meet and don't consider that a litmus test as to whether or not someone can be a valued member of this site, and those that would try to portray otherwise might need to get a grip (I say that respectfully).



Eddie, You've accused me of essays before. I use a lot of words, and I won't apologize for it, nor does it make me look like a fool (IMHO) as I choose each and every word wisely, and deliberately. Furthermore, I try to read and understand things that I am replying to, especially if I don't seem to agree with what is said. That often requires the seeking of clarifications. The fact that I type 80wpm isn't helping. From the complaints at times it seems as if some here can't read at that same rate (lol...jk).



Lastly, I try to never use sarcasm. It has no place in an intelligent discussion amongst mature people, IMHO, and tends to only cause hurt feelings and turn the dialogue towards incivility.



The original article posted was interesting. The fact that gary s posted it was enough for it to be dismissed by Caymen, IMHO, regardless of how insightful it is (my opinion). Lots of axe-grinding there. Gary could have posted saying: "The sky outside my window right now is blue!", and I suspect there would be those here that would have challenged that too.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

The fact that gary s posted it was enough for it to be dismissed by Caymen, IMHO, regardless of how insightful it is (my opinion).

This has nothing to do with who posted it.



This has everything to do with a car being 90% American being rated lower than a another car being 80% and 75% American. It doesn't say, which car employs more Americans.



It says the most American.



It is like saying which stadium holds the most people with 3rd and 4th place is 90,000 people, while 1st and 2nd is only 80,000 and 75,000. It doesn't matter if the first two hold twice as many games as the second two.



The fact is, 90% is a higher amount that 80%.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



We all understand you disagree with the weighting the authors of the article used. That's fine.



"Most American" is a subjective term. It's like "Highest Quality" by Consumer Reports. I know you disagree with them often, too.



Getting everyone to agree with what these subjective ratings mean and getting everyone to agree with those that are rated as more/higher than another will never happen. We shouldn't expect it to be without debate and disagreement.



However, what articles like this should drive home is the simple "fact" that the whole "Buy American" mantra is largely BULL$HIT for most products, especially those complex products like cars. Make no mistake; there are people here and others that read the article and think "Most American" is synonomous with "Best for America", and that's a rightfully drawn parallel.



Regardless, it's very difficult to prove with certainty and authority whether or not the sale of a Camry to someone in Ohio helps the average American (and our economy) any more or any less than the sale of a Ford Focus to that same buyer. Those that would knee-jerk and say that buying the Ford is always better for America, or that a Ford is "more American", seem to be reckless in that regard (to me).



I don't know which cars are more or less American than others. I also don't know which cars when sold help Americans and the economy more. Frankly, on both those counts I don't really care.



The most American car for me is the one that satisfies my needs, my wallet, and my expectation of reliability. It is not the one that I am shamed into buying out of some possibly false sense that my purchase will help the economy or keep my neighbors employed. If I have to be shamed into taking care of my neighbor, then that's about the most "UnAmerican" thing I can think of. In my version of America I take care of my neighbor through charity. I don't want to do it through taxes (a pick of my pocket) or through shame (an insult of my intelligence).



TJR

 

[Richard L]

Caymen,

The fact is, 90% is a higher amount that 80%.

I agree with you completely about the number or percentage of American-parts parts favors Ford, but Ford (90%) was ranked as third, behind Toyota (80%) and Honda (75%).



I also think we can all agree that the article was very poorly written and did not clearly state how they derived those rankings. However they did say that "Where the vehicles were built" was a factor. Since all the vehicles were built in the USA, then logic would indicate that the number of factories or the number of American workers at those factories must have carried a little more weight than simply the number of American-made parts.



Do you really think that they would publsh that Ford had more parts than Toyota and Honda, but then deliberately rank Ford third and think nobody would notice??



I feel that the fact that Toyota and Honda have two factories while Ford only has one means that more Americans were employed at the two factories Toyota and two Honda factories.



I think most people would agree that employing 1 American auto worker should count more than a 5 cent American-made nut, bolt or screw that was used on that car, and I suspect that the author of the article did too...he just forgot to tell us that! POr prhaps he just thought we would be smart enought to figure that out by ourselves.



...Rich

 

[Andy Chase]

The other thing is that maybe the Toyota's have more actual parts built in them.



let's say the Toyota Camry as 1000 individual parts. 80% of that would be 800 parts made in the U.S. The ford has 900 parts. 90% of that would be 765 parts made in the U.S. The artice said number of parts, not percentage. But I think most agree, they were too vague in their methods beyond parts made in the U.S. and where built.

 

[EddieS'04]

Rich and Thomas, The way I read your replies to me, is. I do feel that you go into these long drawn out replies. If you were on my end. I believe you would actually see, how. It puts some on the spot of having to defend their opinion or the facts that they posted. I read the word "I need clarification" sometimes. The clarification is right there. Asking for it is almost an attack on the poster.



I dont have any anymosity towards you. Cant hate someone you dont know. But I believe you have to be on the recieving end to feel being judged. Such as why do you feel or think that way. All I can say is. If you feel like writing an essay on your opinion thats fine. But through outside contact with some other members. I find Im not the only one, that. Feels like sometimes your directed reply, is putting the person on the spot, for their belief. And sometimes feel patronized or condenseded, for thinking different from you.



If I have offended you, I appologize. Not my intention to be a jerk to you. When I wrote what I did last night. I was up, in alot of physical pain and very tired. I probably could have been more peaceful, with my statements. Or not said them at all.



I need to go back to staying out of contraversial subjects. I did for awhile. I just dont like feeling judged for being different in thought. Especialy when all needed info is there. There is a possibiliity I have done it to you. Being on the recieving end of what is written can be recieved, completely different from the writers intentions.



Any case have a good weekend and be blessed and at peace. Ill be back in a few days. I have more things to help mom with since dads death.



Maybe in time. After getting divorced and loosing dad in the same year. I wont be so crazy and sensetive...LOL

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Eddie,



Who is posting the essays now. ;-)



Lost my mom and dad the same year, 11 years ago...6 months apart. I wasn't sensitive then, before, or since.



As for your other comments above (and this is NOT about anyone in this thread), consider the following...



I have no problem with people's beliefs. What I do take issue with is when people hold steadfast to them and can't articulate WHY they do so. I think the world would be a LOT, LOT, LOT better place if people would actually consider, think, understand and be introspective (in other words QUESTION) why they think and believe what they do.



Many can't do that; or should I say are unwilling to do that. When I say "that", I mean question their beliefs and discuss them in an introspective way; and likewise look at the true merits of alternative beliefs. I don't get offended by this, however. I'm not trying to attack anyone. No one owes me anything, and no one needs to defend anything. If anything it SADDENS me that people hold these firm beliefs and cannot really justify them, understand them, question them, articulate them, and open their minds to alternatives. Part of the reason I ask people to explain is I am always adjusting my beliefs. If I can understand alternatives and their rationale, then my beliefs can be more widely considered and open.



I've heard people say things like:



"You can't talk about religion or politics without causing hurt feelings!",



or



"When you question me about my God then we are going to have problems!"....



When I hear things like that I scratch my head. I scratch it because it's totally foreign to me that we would live in the year 2010 and many are still NOT be able to intelligently discuss religion, politics, sports teams, unions, or car brands without reverting to name calling, sarcasm and hurt feelings.



I just can't understand it...not at all.



TJR

 

[Gavin Allan]

Just do what I do: Cling to your guns and religion and have a cold beer.

 

[Richard L]

Eddie,

I agree with nearly everything that TJR said. There are a lot of people who make very absurd, "In your face" statements about what they believe or don't believe and feel that because it is their opinion that nobody should even question it.



Like I said, everyone here has a right to their opinion, but if you keep it to yourself, and don't post it, nobody will question you about it. If you post your opinion here, some people may disagree and that's what makes this such an attractive forum for discussing ideas and opinions. If we all agreed on everything this would be a pretty boring website.



Where things go off track is when someone can't articulate a persuasive debate and begins to get angry. Then the mud-slinging begins and things quickly deteriorate from that point.



The bottom line is:

If you post your opinion here, don't be suprised if someone disagrees with you.

and If you are not willing or capable of defending your opinion in a civilized matter without making every word a personal insult, keep it to yourself and don't post it here.



That sounds simple, but that has not worked for many people.



...Rich

 

[gary s]

caymen quote:

"And this thread is proof why we did not make the minimum people required for the ST meet. Thank goodness for the unknown donor that funded the rest to make it happen. This website is full of has been owners that do nothing but cause trouble and talk crap all day"



wow !!!!

so, a thread about an other then ford vehicle is why the minimum was not met for the meet?

also, this website is "full of has been owners that do nothing but cause trouble and talk crap all day".

can you be more specific??????????

 

[Richard L]

Andy C,

Yes, Good point! I agree that that more parts used in any vehicle could be the reason for the difference since the article did say the "Number of American-made parts".



Again, the author of the article uses conflicting terminology by saying "Number of American-Made parts, then gives the results of American-Made parts as a percentage instead of the actual number of American-made parts, which just adds to the confusion.



Your math is an excellent example of how 80% can be more than 90%.



...Rich

 

[EddieS'04]

Part of the reason I ask people to explain is I am always adjusting my beliefs. If I can understand alternatives and their rationale, then my beliefs can be more widely considered and open.

I hope you dont think I believe that. Missed your calling. Should have been a psycologist.



I have read and watched for years. The use of articulate wording and intelectule talk. To convince others, they need to have your opinions. Or to at least line up with PC.

Strange how words can be used.



I may not be articulate. English LIt. wasnt my strong suit. I might even be a little crazy. Garanteed Im no dummy. BTW, you didnt say that, I was.

Lost my mom and dad the same year, 11 years ago...6 months apart. I wasn't sensitive then, before, or since.



As for your other comments above (and this is NOT about anyone in this thread), consider the following...



I have no problem with people's beliefs. What I do take issue with is when people hold steadfast to them and can't articulate WHY they do so

Exactly what I have been saying. That is holding people to your personal standard.



My last post was an apology to you. Also my intention to stay out of contrversy. Again I will commit to that, or at least try. I wont be to posting or reading this thread again

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Eddie said:

Exactly what I have been saying. That is holding people to your personal standard.

Guilty as charged. If I had my own playgirl centerfold page, on my stats would be only two "turn offs", and they would be: narrow-minded people; and hit-and-run soapboxers (those that jump onto a soap box, claim something, then jump off).



But consider this...are these really MY PERSONAL STANDARDS? As I said, people can believe whatever they want. I really don't care. Seriously, I do not. But if they are going to make their beliefs public, especially in some controversial way, then I really think they should have the common decency and respect for others and be prepared to discuss them. Their right to their beliefs in an unchallenged, non-discussed manner should be expected to end WHEN they make them public, in a public forum, clearly for no other reason than the sake of discussion (lest why else bring them up...right?). I don't think this expectation of discussing, trying to understand or even challenging beliefs is controversial, or "my standard". Nope, I think anyone that is going to put themselves and their beliefs out there, better be ready for what logically follows. Again, not my standard...just a pretty common-sensical, expected sequence of events.



What happens here often is some controversial subject comes up. People start discussing it. Some make some claim that is rather controversial or baseless, then rather than retract, recant, or modify it, they get all pi$$y and start name calling or take a jab and then go dark. I don't really even care when that happens. Heck, I see all the same people doing it here, again and again.



Also, I am not trying to convince anyone of my beliefs. About the only convincing I would like is actually more of "encouraging". I encourage people to understand whey they hold the beliefs they do, and if they are going to strongly convey those beliefs here to help me and others understand them.



You mentioned PC. I'm about the most politically-incorrect person out there.



BTW, your last post as an apology (guess I missed it, but accepted, thanks...but you never offended me), then this new last one essentially calling me a liar, all followed with a "now I am bowing out of this thread", seems like a really good way to stay out of the controversy. LOL



Anyway, I guess you don't understand me.



So, I will make it very clear: My issue, to the extent that I have one with people here, is with the people here that state these absurd, sarcistic things, and then can't or won't back them up. For them, I think they should either be prepared to discuss their ideas/statements/beliefs in a constructive, non-confrontational, unemotional manner, or they should simply keep their comments to themselves. There, that's pretty clear! It's not that I don't agree with, or even need to agree with or understand what someone is saying or believes. That's not it at all. I just have very little patience or tolerence for people that say these absurd things, sarcastically, and then can't/won't back them up, without just more of the same, tired, sarcastic rhetoric and rancor.



Happy 4th, Eddie.



TJR

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

Great post, and well said! My sentiments exactly.



I like your analogy about people who get onto their Soap Box to make some absurd statement and then quickly jump down when they are questioned about their remarks, or make more inflamitory remarks. We all know who these people are and their infinitely lame reasons and excuses for their statments. Once cornered, one will even claim he was just joking, or deny he ever said that when his post still shows exactly what he said....That makes them liars and I cannot stand liars.



...Rich