Josh Langel
Well-Known Member
BTW, I'm a college student. I like to think I am very responsible.
Tragedy at Virginia Tech
- Thread starter TomT
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Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Bill, I am sorry you are offended so easily by my participation in this thread. Can you please elaborate on you statement about my "actions in this thread"? I don't quite understand what "actions" you are talking about.
Also, I'm curious as to why you think it is time for me to grow up a bit? I am 46 years old, 6'-3", and weigh 295 lbs. As far as I am concerned, I feel that I am "grown up" plenty right now.
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
In this case, it is partly politics in the form of law(s) being passed that led to law-abiding citizens being unable to defend themselves against a non-law-abiding citizen.
Like I said before, I find it hard to believe that this happened because guns are not allowed on the VT campus. Both Virginia state law and the student handbook say so.
Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
Mud -
I'm glad you have your CCW... I am working to get mine.
There are several students from V.T. that say that they have a CCW and/or own (1) or more guns but must leave them at home.
You know the training and responcibility that goes with the legal ability to concealed carry. You should know that there hasn't been an "wild west" type shootouts where a CCW holder has been the instigator. If there had been, you bet Sarah Brady and all her ilk would be all over the TV and Radio deploring the CCW permit system.
Sorry you feel this way. All most of us are trying to do is point out facts, especially about firearms, before the news media and anti-2nd amendment people get out there and spew their uneducated nonsence to the world. If I can educate (1) person about the reality of firearms ownership and truth behind "gun control", aside from what Sarah Brady and Handgun Control Inc. and Rosie O'Donnell say, then I have done my job.
Here are some more stats about firearms use that the news media will conviently ignore:
I'm glad you have your CCW... I am working to get mine.
.
There are several students from V.T. that say that they have a CCW and/or own (1) or more guns but must leave them at home.
You know the training and responcibility that goes with the legal ability to concealed carry. You should know that there hasn't been an "wild west" type shootouts where a CCW holder has been the instigator. If there had been, you bet Sarah Brady and all her ilk would be all over the TV and Radio deploring the CCW permit system.
Sorry you feel this way. All most of us are trying to do is point out facts, especially about firearms, before the news media and anti-2nd amendment people get out there and spew their uneducated nonsence to the world. If I can educate (1) person about the reality of firearms ownership and truth behind "gun control", aside from what Sarah Brady and Handgun Control Inc. and Rosie O'Donnell say, then I have done my job.
Here are some more stats about firearms use that the news media will conviently ignore:
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Missouri implemented "right to carry" a few years ago, and crime rates have dropped dramatically since the law was implemented. I'm convinced the more guns out there, as well as the threat of the possibility of more guns out there has deterred crime significantly.
Advertising that "no one has a gun" in a facility or campus just invites nutcases to bring their guns and start shooting.
Advertising that "no one has a gun" in a facility or campus just invites nutcases to bring their guns and start shooting.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
BillV,
I don't see anything in this thread being said that isn't going on in the national news.
Within hours/days of incident, all major news channels were talking about the guns, where they were obtained, were they legal, how long did the gunman have them, etc., and you started hearing from gun opponents and even saw an interview with the gunshop owner that sold the Glock last year.
I can understand your outrage about the whole thing being politicized, but that's happening in every media outlet, TV, radio, Internet...this site.
The facts still remain, however, in this case, so far, it seems like all the guns were obtained legally, quite some time ago, and with adherence to all current gun laws. Does that mean the gun laws need to change?
The way I see it is that unless we outlaw guns, then there will always be the chance that people do bad things with lawfully obtained guns; and on the flip-side if we outlaw guns then bad things will happen with unlawfully obtained guns.
Something needs to change, but I'm not sure what.
TJR
I don't see anything in this thread being said that isn't going on in the national news.
Within hours/days of incident, all major news channels were talking about the guns, where they were obtained, were they legal, how long did the gunman have them, etc., and you started hearing from gun opponents and even saw an interview with the gunshop owner that sold the Glock last year.
I can understand your outrage about the whole thing being politicized, but that's happening in every media outlet, TV, radio, Internet...this site.
The facts still remain, however, in this case, so far, it seems like all the guns were obtained legally, quite some time ago, and with adherence to all current gun laws. Does that mean the gun laws need to change?
The way I see it is that unless we outlaw guns, then there will always be the chance that people do bad things with lawfully obtained guns; and on the flip-side if we outlaw guns then bad things will happen with unlawfully obtained guns.
Something needs to change, but I'm not sure what.
TJR
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Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
We need to outlaw criminals! Sorry, but it won't happen anytime soon. Read up on borderline personality disorder and you will soon see that we have a whole bunch of new criminals on the way, courtesy of societal and programmatic issues we are experiencing.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
TJR--The national news, for the most part (at least the news outlets I saw), simply reported the news the first day or two, without trying to immediately turn someone else's tragedy into a political footnote.
I'll grant that there are/were some people out there whose first words when they heard about events like this arent an empathetic "How horrible!", but a completely insensitive and callous "This is what happens if you allow/ban guns." (Or whatever their pet political/religious/etc. topic is.) But in general, my experience has been that this board and the people on it generally have more common sense and empathy than your average Joe, and don't do that--It's that kind of common sense and "realness" that keeps me (and I suspect others) coming back.
But in this case, that didn't happen. To my recollection, the shootings ended about 10:00 or 11:00, and by 3:37, JohnnyO was already using the event to advance his agenda, with Gavin, RShek, and others rapidly jumping on the bandwagon after that. JohnnyO even went so far to say early in his initial comment that "I don't mean to turn this into a gun control discussion," even though the rest of his message clearly indicates that that was completely false, and that that was exactly his intent.
I didn't know any of the families directly involved in the Red Lake shootings two years ago, but I know many people who knew victims and their families directly. And I've heard from a few of them that one thing they appreciated at the time was that when it happened, there didn't seem to be an immediate move by many people to try to get a bunch of guns/violence/etc. rhetoric going on at either a local or national level. For the most part, the immediate response was to allow and even help these families and that community heal--everything else was secondary. Some of them said that it was like people had learned a lesson after Columbine, when within hours, the internet, talk radio, and other media were full of religious and weapons zealots (on all sides of the issues) trying to turn the situation into their own soapbox, ignoring the fact that there are actual people involved. For most of them, that backfired, as their target audience saw them as insensitive boors.
I had hoped that they were right, and that we as a society had learned to avoid such impulses, and to show that we, as humans, do have a heart.
But the reactions of a few members here, as well as a large percentage of news outlets and other media since that first day, force me to disappointedly realize that it just hasn't happened, that either nobody learned a thing, or that everyone had forgotten their lesson.
I'll grant that there are/were some people out there whose first words when they heard about events like this arent an empathetic "How horrible!", but a completely insensitive and callous "This is what happens if you allow/ban guns." (Or whatever their pet political/religious/etc. topic is.) But in general, my experience has been that this board and the people on it generally have more common sense and empathy than your average Joe, and don't do that--It's that kind of common sense and "realness" that keeps me (and I suspect others) coming back.
But in this case, that didn't happen. To my recollection, the shootings ended about 10:00 or 11:00, and by 3:37, JohnnyO was already using the event to advance his agenda, with Gavin, RShek, and others rapidly jumping on the bandwagon after that. JohnnyO even went so far to say early in his initial comment that "I don't mean to turn this into a gun control discussion," even though the rest of his message clearly indicates that that was completely false, and that that was exactly his intent.
I didn't know any of the families directly involved in the Red Lake shootings two years ago, but I know many people who knew victims and their families directly. And I've heard from a few of them that one thing they appreciated at the time was that when it happened, there didn't seem to be an immediate move by many people to try to get a bunch of guns/violence/etc. rhetoric going on at either a local or national level. For the most part, the immediate response was to allow and even help these families and that community heal--everything else was secondary. Some of them said that it was like people had learned a lesson after Columbine, when within hours, the internet, talk radio, and other media were full of religious and weapons zealots (on all sides of the issues) trying to turn the situation into their own soapbox, ignoring the fact that there are actual people involved. For most of them, that backfired, as their target audience saw them as insensitive boors.
I had hoped that they were right, and that we as a society had learned to avoid such impulses, and to show that we, as humans, do have a heart.
But the reactions of a few members here, as well as a large percentage of news outlets and other media since that first day, force me to disappointedly realize that it just hasn't happened, that either nobody learned a thing, or that everyone had forgotten their lesson.
Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
Beg to differ... Rosie was spouting off the first day about gun control. The bodies were still warm when ABC News had the usual suspects (Sarah Brady and the guy from Handgun Control Inc.) spreading exagerations and lies about guns and gun owners.
Gun owners, NRA, GOA and similar groups are usually put on the defensive because we tend to give the families time to greeve and atleast let the police/investigators do their job. It's groups like HCI and Brady Handgun Group, Sharpton, Jackson, et al. who make the first move. This is the first time that 2nd Amendment supporters have immediately stood up. Why? Because as we have seen in the past, paranoia and exagerations are all the media is about and we as a collective need to help set the record straight and keep the media honest (or at least try to) in their reporting.
Within minutes of the 2nd shooting, there were reports that the guy had an illegally modified rifle with hi-cap mags.... then it was an EBR (evil Black Rifle) like an AR or AK. Then it was a pair of modified handguns.... then handguns with 30rd mags (where can I find these??? I want some... they don't exist)... then finally the truth came out (1) full day later that the guns were both legal and legally obtained....
Gun owners have learned their lesson. Groups like NRA and GOA will stand up right away and point out fallocies before the media can cement into the sheeple of this country that guns are the problem, not the criminal.
It's a sad and tragic occurance. The media has blown this story into an absolute frenzy (same thing with Imus, Anna, Alberto Gonzalez, etc). Not to diminish the extent of this evil by comparing it to someone who said something stupid but it's the way the media works now a days.
Conservatives=bad
Christians=bad
Guns=bad
Jackson=Good
Sharpton=Good
Talk Radio=bad
Death/Tragedy=Good
Underdog Story=Good
Add to the list that the shooter was mentally ill but never committed, and we have a recipe for the ultimate news story.
All the while, I have yet to hear a single news story on the fact that the Virginia Legistlature voted down a bill that would have allowed students and staff to carry concealed weapons on campus if they were legally permitted just (1) year ago.... citing that parents and students would feel safer without guns on campus..... just goes to show that the only people who obeyed the gun laws were the victims, not the criminal.
TomT
Well-Known Member
This video is for you R Shek. 
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Rosie is not part of the "national news" media. At best, she would be called "entertainer"--and even that's a stretch. And fortunately, I have not seen/heard anything from her this week.
You're kidding on some of these, right??? If anything, the way the national media portrays them are:
Conservatives=neutral/good, except on Fox News, where Conservatives=good
Christians=good/neutral, except on Fox News, where Christians=infinite good
Guns=neutral, except on Fox News, where guns=good/neutral
Jackson=misguided/slightly bad, except on Fox News, where Jackson=bad
Sharpton=hot air, except on Fox News, where Sharpton=evil
Talk Radio=all over map, depending on the particular show, all sources
Death/Tragedy=bad, by all sources
Underdog Story=good if it is the result of noteworthy exceptional achievement
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