Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I had five, but one of the 16-year old sisters died. Now I am down to four cats and a dog.
Transmission shifting (Solved)
- Thread starter Lou M
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Steve Krusich
Well-Known Member
There definitely is a dipstick on the Gen 2, V8, 5 spd. Trans. It is under a cap on the passenger side of the transmission on the seam next to the catalytic converter. It is yellow and stubby.
Having changed my fluid and filter I can attest to the fact that achieving the proper fluid level when hot is a pain!
Having changed my fluid and filter I can attest to the fact that achieving the proper fluid level when hot is a pain!
Well it appears that everyone has an opinion about Lou's transmission. Some are talking about a 6 speed automatic, while others mention it's a 5 speed? Some feel it is sealed without a dipstick, and other's now claim it has a dipstick. Someone mentioned that it has a Transmission Computer, some wonder if it can be reset to learn or not... Another claims the transmission computer is part of the valve body and that the computer can be confused by passing frequencies??
It appears that nobody, including me knows what the hell we are talking about. Lou did not mention adding any superchargers, or making any modifications, so why would he need to reset the computer/s to relearn his driving style?
Perhaps we need to let Lou fill us in on the details as to whether he has a 5 speed or a 6 speed, if he made any engine modifications or if these shifting problems just appeared suddenly, or if they have been getting worse over some period of time.
My experience with automatic transmissions tells me that Lou more than likely has old burnt fluid....checking the fluid level and the condition of the fluid has always been the first step in diagnosing automatic transmission problems. If he has a dipstick he can quickly check it and quickly tell if the fluid is low, dark, or burnt. If he does not have a dipstick, that would indicate he has a sealed transmission with a "Permanent" fluid, then I would be even more than suspicius that Lou has some bad fluid and should do a full flush and refill with a synthetic Mercon-V.
If he wants to disconnect the battery, tap the cables together, swing a dead cat, or do a rain dance, I doubt that reseting the computer/s will do anything, but there certainly is no harm in trying. But since everyone seems to disagree on exactly how to clear the computer, how will he know if his computer/s have reset the learning mode if the shifting problems continue?
Lou, let us know what you try and what you find out.
...Rich
It appears that nobody, including me knows what the hell we are talking about. Lou did not mention adding any superchargers, or making any modifications, so why would he need to reset the computer/s to relearn his driving style?
Perhaps we need to let Lou fill us in on the details as to whether he has a 5 speed or a 6 speed, if he made any engine modifications or if these shifting problems just appeared suddenly, or if they have been getting worse over some period of time.
My experience with automatic transmissions tells me that Lou more than likely has old burnt fluid....checking the fluid level and the condition of the fluid has always been the first step in diagnosing automatic transmission problems. If he has a dipstick he can quickly check it and quickly tell if the fluid is low, dark, or burnt. If he does not have a dipstick, that would indicate he has a sealed transmission with a "Permanent" fluid, then I would be even more than suspicius that Lou has some bad fluid and should do a full flush and refill with a synthetic Mercon-V.
If he wants to disconnect the battery, tap the cables together, swing a dead cat, or do a rain dance, I doubt that reseting the computer/s will do anything, but there certainly is no harm in trying. But since everyone seems to disagree on exactly how to clear the computer, how will he know if his computer/s have reset the learning mode if the shifting problems continue?
Lou, let us know what you try and what you find out.
...Rich
Carey Frennier
Well-Known Member
Well...ask your ford dealer. The TCM is part of the valve body. I just know what I was told by Riley Ford's service manager in Chazy, NY. He said the reason there has been no recall or fix or unlocked TCMs for aftermarket programming was because there simply is no fix for the goofy shifting. No matter how you program it, it will still use the adaptive learning strategy and thus the problem will return. If you can edit shift points and firmness, you can camouflage the symptoms better. Which is what Ford did with the 09-10 models and all the F150's that have the 6R80 trans.
As a result of my supercharger install, I needed better shifting. I actually did a bunch of research into finding an aftermarket valve body for the trans. I found a company that mods them. They said it was expensive because they were the only ones that did it and because the TCM was part of the VB. I didn't believe them so I called my Ford dealership and they confirmed that the TCM was part of the VB. Then I found VB on eBay for the 6R80 trans out of an F150 and guess what....they had a pic or the VB and it was attached to the TCM.
Pick up the phone and ask the dealer. They will confirm the Metronics issues with picking up stray data and causing shift anomalies that they cannot resolve.
There are several other members that have confirmed this since 2008.
I'm pretty sure that all gen 2 ST's with a V8 are either 6R60 (2007) or a 6R80 (08-10). I can't find any information to disprove this regarding a Sport Trac.
As a result of my supercharger install, I needed better shifting. I actually did a bunch of research into finding an aftermarket valve body for the trans. I found a company that mods them. They said it was expensive because they were the only ones that did it and because the TCM was part of the VB. I didn't believe them so I called my Ford dealership and they confirmed that the TCM was part of the VB. Then I found VB on eBay for the 6R80 trans out of an F150 and guess what....they had a pic or the VB and it was attached to the TCM.
Pick up the phone and ask the dealer. They will confirm the Metronics issues with picking up stray data and causing shift anomalies that they cannot resolve.
There are several other members that have confirmed this since 2008.
I'm pretty sure that all gen 2 ST's with a V8 are either 6R60 (2007) or a 6R80 (08-10). I can't find any information to disprove this regarding a Sport Trac.
Carey Frennier
Well-Known Member
FYI, Ford's OEM and recommended trans fluid for the 6R60-6R80 trans will be brown in color right out of the box. So don't let some scammer tell you that you need to flush your fluid simply because it's brown. That's normal.
I think the trans flush is a good idea. You can also inspect the magnet that's seated in the pan to see how much metal is on there. There will ALWAYS be some metal sprinkled on it. You're looking for larger chunks or shavings.
I think the trans flush is a good idea. You can also inspect the magnet that's seated in the pan to see how much metal is on there. There will ALWAYS be some metal sprinkled on it. You're looking for larger chunks or shavings.
Psycareyo,
I can understand having problems with the transmission shifting when they install a supercharger, or anyother add on performance part. Lou has not indicated that he has done any mods that would cause shifting issues.
Even if the TCM was subject to stray frequencies??? it would just keep learning and re-averaging in the new data and gradually improve the operation. Lou's problem appears to be getting worse or not changing?? What's the point of resetting the TCM when it will not fix the problem? The fact that a Dealer's Service Manager claims this is a problem does not convince me that it's true... In fact most service managers I have met don't have a clue...They are just customer relations puppets for the dealer. I look at it as just dealer "CYA" for a problem they don't know how to fix, or don't want to bother with.
I had one Service Manager at a Pontiac dealer tell me that it was odd that I was having so much problems with the power windows in my Pontiac Grand Prix during the warranty, and now it was after the warranty and I had another power window failure. He told the service writer to fix it under warranty, which was fine. Whe the Service Manager walked away, the service writer shook his head and said the Service Manager is clueless or lying since that model Grand Prix was plaqued with power window problems...I knew that was true because it was all over the internet, and confirmed by the Service Writer.
PS: I have done and extensive search on the Ford 6R60/6R80 transmissions and have not heard of any issues with Adaptive learning? The most common problem appears to be the Bump while slowing down to stop (under 10 MPH) That's why I think the Service Manager you quoted is just blowing smoke up your butt. If what that Service Manager said was true, I am sure other people would know about it, and the Web would be abuzz with people who have that problem or at least think they do.
...Rich
I can understand having problems with the transmission shifting when they install a supercharger, or anyother add on performance part. Lou has not indicated that he has done any mods that would cause shifting issues.
Even if the TCM was subject to stray frequencies??? it would just keep learning and re-averaging in the new data and gradually improve the operation. Lou's problem appears to be getting worse or not changing?? What's the point of resetting the TCM when it will not fix the problem? The fact that a Dealer's Service Manager claims this is a problem does not convince me that it's true... In fact most service managers I have met don't have a clue...They are just customer relations puppets for the dealer. I look at it as just dealer "CYA" for a problem they don't know how to fix, or don't want to bother with.
I had one Service Manager at a Pontiac dealer tell me that it was odd that I was having so much problems with the power windows in my Pontiac Grand Prix during the warranty, and now it was after the warranty and I had another power window failure. He told the service writer to fix it under warranty, which was fine. Whe the Service Manager walked away, the service writer shook his head and said the Service Manager is clueless or lying since that model Grand Prix was plaqued with power window problems...I knew that was true because it was all over the internet, and confirmed by the Service Writer.
PS: I have done and extensive search on the Ford 6R60/6R80 transmissions and have not heard of any issues with Adaptive learning? The most common problem appears to be the Bump while slowing down to stop (under 10 MPH) That's why I think the Service Manager you quoted is just blowing smoke up your butt. If what that Service Manager said was true, I am sure other people would know about it, and the Web would be abuzz with people who have that problem or at least think they do.
...Rich
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Carey Frennier
Well-Known Member
My bad, didn't know my info was unhelpful and in argument with the myst resident trams expert.
Don't even know why I bothered to post my experience since I don't even own one of these.
Don't even know why I bothered to post my experience since I don't even own one of these.
Psycareyo,
I am not doubting anything you say, I just think the Service Manager is full of BS...You are free to believe him if you wish, I don't. Web searches for problems related to problems with Adaptive learning failures do not indicate that is or has been a problem with the 6 speed transmission. If the Service Manager said it was a known problem since 2008 it would be a well known issue all over the Web by now.
Your issues with programming the PCM and TCM were related to your Supercharger. Lou did not indicate that he installed a Supercharger, so there is no related reason why Lou should suddenly be experiencing shifting problems on a stock vehicle after 70K miles.
Your Service Manager's statement does not past the sniff test, particularly since he appears to be the only one claiming that Ford has been aware of the problem since 2008? How come after 4 years nobody else seems knows about?? If the problem has existed for 4 years and Ford has not found a solution, there would be a whole lot of people who know about it and would make their issues known.
I just don't understand when people get all puffed up defending what someone else said, when some simple research does not support what they said? That is just his opinion, but he has no evidence to support his statement.
I am not arguing with you, I am just doubting the verasity of the Service Manager's statement and my research does not support what he told you.
...Rich
I am not doubting anything you say, I just think the Service Manager is full of BS...You are free to believe him if you wish, I don't. Web searches for problems related to problems with Adaptive learning failures do not indicate that is or has been a problem with the 6 speed transmission. If the Service Manager said it was a known problem since 2008 it would be a well known issue all over the Web by now.
Your issues with programming the PCM and TCM were related to your Supercharger. Lou did not indicate that he installed a Supercharger, so there is no related reason why Lou should suddenly be experiencing shifting problems on a stock vehicle after 70K miles.
Your Service Manager's statement does not past the sniff test, particularly since he appears to be the only one claiming that Ford has been aware of the problem since 2008? How come after 4 years nobody else seems knows about?? If the problem has existed for 4 years and Ford has not found a solution, there would be a whole lot of people who know about it and would make their issues known.
I just don't understand when people get all puffed up defending what someone else said, when some simple research does not support what they said? That is just his opinion, but he has no evidence to support his statement.
I am not arguing with you, I am just doubting the verasity of the Service Manager's statement and my research does not support what he told you.
...Rich
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gary s
Well-Known Member
i was never happy with the tranny in 07 lmtd v-8 4x4. after 2 trips to the dealer the problem was never resolved. it felt like a tap in in the ass when rolling up to a stop as well as the tranny hunting at cruising accell.
some have had their problem resolved but i was not that fortunate.
some have had their problem resolved but i was not that fortunate.
Carey Frennier
Well-Known Member
Carey Frennier
Well-Known Member
1) I had trans issues in my 08 Na.
2) the issues existed in my 2010, but were insignificant until the addition of the supercharger. It magnified the symptoms.
If you have a program that's set to interpret a fixed number of variables and compensate....in the event where unknown variables are being interpreted...the compensation will be different as these variables are unknown to the system.
Just because a computer has antivirus, doesn't mean it can't get brought down.
Ford swept the trans issue under the rug because they knew they were going to retire the ST.
2) the issues existed in my 2010, but were insignificant until the addition of the supercharger. It magnified the symptoms.
If you have a program that's set to interpret a fixed number of variables and compensate....in the event where unknown variables are being interpreted...the compensation will be different as these variables are unknown to the system.
Just because a computer has antivirus, doesn't mean it can't get brought down.
Ford swept the trans issue under the rug because they knew they were going to retire the ST.
Psycareyo,
If the previous stored data was lost? the system will consider the old data invalid, and signal an error code, or just use the new incoming data as the new current value. If the new incoming data was invalid it would signal an error code for the sensor that supplies that data, and not accept it as a valid value...If the old data and new data are valid (within tolerance) the new data is averaged with the old data and now becomes the current data...That's how Adaptive Learning works in automotive computers.
Since these data updates take place every few seconds, the Adaptive Learning would quickly compensate for any invalid data with new valid data being updated every few seconds.
As for Ford sweeping the issue under the rug?? If you or your Service Manager know that Ford swept it under the rug would that not indicate they did not do a very good job of hiding the issue?? Even if Ford tried to hide the problem, it would still be a well known problem and complaint of the many owners of any vehicle with the 6R60-6R80 transmissions. That kind of major issue would be all over the internet on nearly all the Ford related forums. However my internet searches on problems and issues related to the Ford 6 speed automatics only shows the known problem related to the downshift bump.
Ford may be able to cover up the issue with their dealerships or within the Ford organization, but they cannot cover up the many Ford vehicle owner websites like this one. Owners will post more complaints than praises making it impossible for Ford to just sweep it under the rug... In 4 years there would be a very long trail of unhappy Ford owners and it would be all over the internet.
I don't care if you don't accept my opinion, but the part that puzzles me is why you accept and even defend this Service Manager's claim when evidence indicates it can't be completely true...it may be his opinion, but the lack of owner complaints on the Web does not support his theory, or that Ford swept this issue under the rug?
..Rich
If the previous stored data was lost? the system will consider the old data invalid, and signal an error code, or just use the new incoming data as the new current value. If the new incoming data was invalid it would signal an error code for the sensor that supplies that data, and not accept it as a valid value...If the old data and new data are valid (within tolerance) the new data is averaged with the old data and now becomes the current data...That's how Adaptive Learning works in automotive computers.
Since these data updates take place every few seconds, the Adaptive Learning would quickly compensate for any invalid data with new valid data being updated every few seconds.
As for Ford sweeping the issue under the rug?? If you or your Service Manager know that Ford swept it under the rug would that not indicate they did not do a very good job of hiding the issue?? Even if Ford tried to hide the problem, it would still be a well known problem and complaint of the many owners of any vehicle with the 6R60-6R80 transmissions. That kind of major issue would be all over the internet on nearly all the Ford related forums. However my internet searches on problems and issues related to the Ford 6 speed automatics only shows the known problem related to the downshift bump.
Ford may be able to cover up the issue with their dealerships or within the Ford organization, but they cannot cover up the many Ford vehicle owner websites like this one. Owners will post more complaints than praises making it impossible for Ford to just sweep it under the rug... In 4 years there would be a very long trail of unhappy Ford owners and it would be all over the internet.
I don't care if you don't accept my opinion, but the part that puzzles me is why you accept and even defend this Service Manager's claim when evidence indicates it can't be completely true...it may be his opinion, but the lack of owner complaints on the Web does not support his theory, or that Ford swept this issue under the rug?
..Rich
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Ray Gullan
Member
Lou M
Member
Scheduling a trans flush and fill next week.
In talking with my transmission shop owner, he indicated that this is a common problem with the 5R55 units. He was surprised that the 6R60 had it too. Something to do with the OD servos wearing the OD servo pin holes out of round and fluid not keeping the correct pressure when downshifting.
I did take him for a drive. And as soon as it happened, he knew the problem. His first recommendation was to flush and service (as you all recommended). Then see what happens.
Due to the mileage (70K) he suggested a complete rebuild rather than use the old parts if the problem is still there. He would inspect the servo pin holes while into it and repair if necessary. He also recommended a beefier torque converter due to the V8.
During my talk with him, he showed me a 5R55 unit, where the servos are, and the repair kit that they use on them. Looks like they over bore the ovalized pin hole then insert a bronze bushing. A very patient/knowledgeable guy. Supports race trucks in Baja.
Will let you all know the outcome after the fluid flush.
Lou...
In talking with my transmission shop owner, he indicated that this is a common problem with the 5R55 units. He was surprised that the 6R60 had it too. Something to do with the OD servos wearing the OD servo pin holes out of round and fluid not keeping the correct pressure when downshifting.
I did take him for a drive. And as soon as it happened, he knew the problem. His first recommendation was to flush and service (as you all recommended). Then see what happens.
Due to the mileage (70K) he suggested a complete rebuild rather than use the old parts if the problem is still there. He would inspect the servo pin holes while into it and repair if necessary. He also recommended a beefier torque converter due to the V8.
During my talk with him, he showed me a 5R55 unit, where the servos are, and the repair kit that they use on them. Looks like they over bore the ovalized pin hole then insert a bronze bushing. A very patient/knowledgeable guy. Supports race trucks in Baja.
Will let you all know the outcome after the fluid flush.
Lou...
Lou,
It sounds like your tranny guy is on the ball, however I disagree about the beefier torque converter unless you are hauling/towing a lot of weight. Yes, racing trucks can use a racing ptorque converter, but not so much on a street driven vehicle....Plus they are very pricey. Replacing the Torque converter is also an unnecessary expense and a beefier unit can run and additional $2000+, so if it there is nothing wrong with it in 70K miles, why replace it?
Also, most transmission shops that do rebuilds or sell rebuilt transmissions will only replace the parts that are worn or show signs of wear or damage. Replacing everything in the transmission is very rare and very expensive. So if he wants to rebuild the transmission and replace everything, you better get a price quote first because I think you will find that cost prohibitive. If the price is less than $2500-$2600 for parts and labor, (not including removing and replacing the tranny, and no warranty) he is not replacing everything in the tranny Even a factory rebuild transmission with a warranty will cost about $2500 and they do not replace every part in the unit...just what need replacing.
...Rich
It sounds like your tranny guy is on the ball, however I disagree about the beefier torque converter unless you are hauling/towing a lot of weight. Yes, racing trucks can use a racing ptorque converter, but not so much on a street driven vehicle....Plus they are very pricey. Replacing the Torque converter is also an unnecessary expense and a beefier unit can run and additional $2000+, so if it there is nothing wrong with it in 70K miles, why replace it?
Also, most transmission shops that do rebuilds or sell rebuilt transmissions will only replace the parts that are worn or show signs of wear or damage. Replacing everything in the transmission is very rare and very expensive. So if he wants to rebuild the transmission and replace everything, you better get a price quote first because I think you will find that cost prohibitive. If the price is less than $2500-$2600 for parts and labor, (not including removing and replacing the tranny, and no warranty) he is not replacing everything in the tranny Even a factory rebuild transmission with a warranty will cost about $2500 and they do not replace every part in the unit...just what need replacing.
...Rich
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EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
What does he mean about a beefier torque convertor. The OEM unit should be fine with the V8.
If you had a f-250 powerstroke hauling and trailering. My ex in-law had to upgrade to furnace braised and welded fins in the turbine of the convertor.
If you had a f-250 powerstroke hauling and trailering. My ex in-law had to upgrade to furnace braised and welded fins in the turbine of the convertor.
Lou,
Checkout www.A1AutoParts.com. They have several Used 6R60 (4X2) transmissions with free UPS shipping in the range of $1500 to $1700. I don't know if there is a core charge for your old tranny and if you have to send it back? These are Used, not rebuilt, but they give a 5 year warranty which is hard to beat. I'll bet your tranny guy will not give you a 5 year warranty on the tranny he rebuilds with all all new parts?
...Rich
Checkout www.A1AutoParts.com. They have several Used 6R60 (4X2) transmissions with free UPS shipping in the range of $1500 to $1700. I don't know if there is a core charge for your old tranny and if you have to send it back? These are Used, not rebuilt, but they give a 5 year warranty which is hard to beat. I'll bet your tranny guy will not give you a 5 year warranty on the tranny he rebuilds with all all new parts?
...Rich
Lou M
Member
Well....
I had the trans flushed and filter changed. And it still does it. There weren't any particles in the fluid/filter. I was actually trying to drive it hard after I picked it up to see if it would do again. When I launched aggressively from a stop light, I spun the tires a bit when it shifted into 2nd. :grin:
Looks like a rebuild is in the cards for me. Dealer says reflashing won't solve the problem.
Lou...
I had the trans flushed and filter changed. And it still does it. There weren't any particles in the fluid/filter. I was actually trying to drive it hard after I picked it up to see if it would do again. When I launched aggressively from a stop light, I spun the tires a bit when it shifted into 2nd. :grin:
Looks like a rebuild is in the cards for me. Dealer says reflashing won't solve the problem.
Lou...
Lou M
Member
Thanks Rich.
Looking now.
Lou...
edit: Cannot find a1AutoParts.com. Says the name is for sale.
Link?
L...
Looking now.
Lou...
edit: Cannot find a1AutoParts.com. Says the name is for sale.
Link?
L...
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