where do you stow yours ?

[CountyMounty]

I could go on about gun safety and kids with guns and all that but I think both side of the issue has been pretty much covered. I just want to thank bigdaddy for his last post (response) to all. It was in good taste and he did not go the route of taking big issue with posters that made statments that I assume may have irritated him. He obviously realizes and respects that everyone has their own opinion.



As for his question, there seems to be limited choices for concealing a handgun and still provide quick easy access. I am about halfway through the installation of strobe lights, a radio, rechargeable flashlight etc and have found that there is very little room in (under) the center console (full length high serie console). However I did find a neat place to mount my 2-way radio that might also work for a handgun. The small removeable part of the console that is just in front of the arm rest lid. I removed that piece and there is just enough room to put my radio in there. My only concern is that the front part of the console clips into this piece so with it gone that will not happen. I believe that it will not be a problem as the other forward clips will still hold it snugly, if not I will fabricate something to hold it. With a little bit of creativity someone may be able to fabricate something within this small space to store a firearm. I will check into this more when I get back to completing my projecct. Just a thought.

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

I think purchasing a 22 rifle for a 5 year old is not a wise thing to do.

I know plenty of 5 year olds that can shoot as well or better that I can. Also, by law they cannot "own" a firearm at 5 years old. That does not mean that I as a responcible American and Adult cannot own a child's size .22 (such as a Cricket or Chipmunk), even if it is pink.



I'm sorry, but the best way for me to teach firearm safety and responcibility to my kids is to actually take them out to a range and show them the ins-and-outs of gun use, cleaning, safety and all related topics. I am a CRuFFLer (that is C&R FFL 03 licensee). I have been around firearms fore more than 15 years and served as a BSA certified instructor at a Southern California Scout Reservation teaching firearm instruction, safety and use. I own 8 firearms, 6 rifles, a handgun and a shotgun. I love my kids (a two year old and I find out today if #2 is comming soon) more than anything in my life. Believe me, if I have any doubts about keeping my kids safe, there will not be any firearm for them in my house. The safe in the house is a combination safe, so there is no key to accidentally get a hold of. I do not have any loaded firearms in my house. I do have loaded mags and stripper clips, but they are away from the firearms themselves (until there is room in the safe, then all loaded mags and clips will be kept in the safe).



Back onto the topic at hand, what about doing a cover for the driver door panel to store your firearm in? I havn't looked yet, but I know there is a space behind the glove box in my Taurus that would fit a smaller handgun as well.



Good luck and let us know what you do. Maybe others will do the same where it is legal to do so.

 

[Richard L]

R. Sheck,

I have no doubts that you are an experience gun handler and see know reason why you should not teach your children how to shoot a weapon and handle it safely. And there may be many 5 year olds who can outshoot you or me combined, that's not the point.



My only concern is that if you by a 5 year old a "Child" size weapon for Christmas or a birthday, they feel they own the gun, and if it's their's they will want to play with it. If they know how to load the gun and how it works and they get access to it when you are not home, dispite your warnings and best intentions, some regretful things might happen.



The other factor is that the average child of 5 cannot possibly comprehend the extrodinary danger of the weapon. Most children of 5 cannot grasp the concept of death or permanent disability that can be inflicted by such a small little thing like a bullet.



That's just my opinion. Obviously you should raise your children as you see best.



...Rich

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

I don't plan on getting one for their birthday or Christmas. I plan on getting one to let them use when WE are together. It will not be "theirs" so to speak. It will still be "mine" (a cricket makes a decent squirrel gun for an adult.... quick to point).



If you'd rather... I could let them use my SKS, Garand or hell.... I'll drag out my 8mm Mauser or 7.62x54r M91/30 Mosin-Nagant (both of which are bigger than the average 5 year old). That would make it PAINFULLY clear to them that these are only to be used when Daddy is around. Course, they will never want to shoot a firearm again either. Maybe that's the point to someone, but not me.



I want my children to have an appreciation for the sport. I want them to take an interest in and use their rights guarenteed by our Consitution (unless the Demorats take congress... yeah right). I want my children to respect firearms, and the best way to do so is to immerse them into their use. I don't want them to be affraid of them, but they will have the training that if they see one, not to touch and get an adult. If they can see the consequences of pulling the trigger where safe, they will think twice about where it's not safe.



Case in point:

When I was an instructor at scout camp, I would quiz the scouts about firearms safety before any instruction was given on what potential a firearm has. Then I would grab a branch about 2"-3" in diameter and shoot it with a 20 GA from about 3' away, obviously causing the branch severe damage or breakage. I would ask the same questions again. Amazing hoe most of the answers would be different. Why? They were able to see first-hand the power of a firearm. They weren't just "told", they were immersed. They were not sat down, firearm no where in sight, and said "this could happen". Witnessing is much more powerful than being told.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Witnessing is much more powerful than being told...Amen to that:



<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/g2aVjxA1xjs"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/g2aVjxA1xjs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

I'm the only one in this room, professional enough, that I know of, to carry this Glock 40...BAM!

 

[John Walker]

Gotta love professionals.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

R Shek,



Shooting anything that is 3' away with a 20 guage sounds like a very bad idea. I can't help but think that type of shooting is not sanctioned by the scouting organization and the training you were given as an instructor.

 

[Johnny O]

93 octane.



Ape out.



:lol:

 

[Bob R]

Why not in your pocket.

Bob

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

Shooting anything that is 3' away with a 20 guage sounds like a very bad idea. I can't help but think that type of shooting is not sanctioned by the scouting organization and the training you were given as an instructor.

You're right, it was probably more like 4', however, the condition of the shot is also important:



The branch was laid on the ground and shot at about a 30-45 degree angle. We also used fairly low power reload (I did all the reloading so I know what was in there). All the scouts were kept back another 10' behind me. All of us had on all the requisite protective equipment.



There was not one single injury on my range the summer I was there. I had one "close call" when one of the scouts fired the shotgun before anyone was ready (I was standing next to him picking a dropped shell off the ground at the time), completely ignoring several of the rules that were told to him. He was promptly dismissed and asked not to return. His scoutmaster tried to give myself an another instructor an earful until we said what he did and that this is our range and if we feel that someone was doing something we felt dangerous or not to standard BSA/NRA shooting rules we would remove them from the range. It was after this incident that we made a few additional changes to our policies that I belive are still in place today (10+ years later).



I have personally had some additional "close calls" that I have learned from as well. We are not all perfect. However, that does not keep me from training my kids and any other person I get involved with proper firearm safety. You are never too young to learn proper firearm safety habits and handling. Well, a 2-year-old maybe a bit young.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Still, shooting anything from 3 or 4' feet away with a 20 gauge, regardless of angle and backing isn't a great idea. I doubt you would win any kudos if one of the instructors from the local council saw you do it.



I doubt that shooting things 4 feet away is according to "standard BSA/NRA" shooting rules.



You might want to check. The rules are there for a reason, just like our laws, and it's not up to individuals to justify that their deviations are "safe enough".

 

[shawn stonbraker 2]

TJR, as a former scout (just missed getting my Eagle due to my troop disbanding), R Shek says he is a "BSA certified instructor" which means he has been trained and is able to run the shooting range for BSA camps. Here is a link to the "Guides to safe Scouting" (#7 on the list) and it has a "Guns and Firearms" section. (section VIII) Nowhere in there does it say that the instructor cannot shoot anything within a certain amount of feet. My instructor at camp used to shoot a watermelon with a shotgun at about the same distance every year to show just what the destructive power of a shotgun blast was. I grew up around guns so I already knew going in. Unfortunately there were kids there that never even seen a gun before and had no idea. It was also like that in the Army. Guys in my unit in Basic had no idea what they were doing. The instructor would start out showing the destructive power of the weapon, just to give an idea so these guys would know, "pay close attention to the business end of the weapon". If my kid was there being trained by R Shek, I would applode him on his training tactic. Telling and showing are to different things. If you tell a kid something then prove that point to them, it holds better. R Shek, keep up the good work my man and keep teaching the kids. The training I got from the scouts on shooting kept me alive in Desert Shield/Storm and also got me the High BRM (Basic Rife Marksmanship) Award in Basic Training. That was for the whole base, not just my unit. Keep scouting!!!!

 

[Richard L]

R.Shek,

Your very first post stated that you were getting your daughter a 22 for her 5th birthday !!! That is what I based by opinion on. Now you are saying that you are not getting her a gun for her birthday or Christmas....You will get it but it will be yours??



I don't care about what guns you own or how you instructed kids at scout camp. I'm not against guns, I just don't think a child of 5 or even under the age of 12 should personally own a gun. Legally they cannot own a gun for the same reason they cannot drive a car at that age.



...Rich

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Stone,



Thanks for looking that up. Still, common sense would say that shooting anything lying on the ground 4 feet away is not wise. The fact that the guidelines don't caution against such actions either means they are lax or they assume instructors would know better.



I'm not saying NOT to show kids the destructive power of a shotgun, but I think there are better ways to do it than shooting things at near point-blank range.



BTW, I was a scout, my oldest son is working towards Eagle (one rank away), I have been a BSA leader for almost 7 years, and I have taken the NRA rifle safety instructions so please don't presume that you need to educate me on such matters of certification.



If y'all think it's wise to shot stuff point-blank in front of kids, and potentially endanger yourselves, then I can't change your mind I suspect.



P.S. Following the link you provided makes me think the information is a little light, and the real meat of the "do's and don'ts" is in the course material or manual for the "NRA Certified Shotgun Instructor" exam, which said cert is required to instruct scouts on the proper use of a shotgun.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

RichardL, I assumed RShek was being sarcastic with regards to giving his daughter of 5 a gun. Such sarcasm is a commonly employed by people when they debate a position with someone that they think holds their behavior or believe in contempt.



For example, I might be debating abortion with someone whom (taking the anti side for the sake of argument) and they rebutt by saying "Oh yeah, well I actually prefer abortion to birth control and since it's my right, so what?"



I actually find it insulting and counter productive as it positions some absurd example as a rebuttal in an attempt to say in a snide way "of course I don't carry my beliefs to the extreme". I find it counter productive as it never really gets to the root of what the responding person really thinks, or means or what motivates their actions.



Still, if R Shek wants to give his 5yo a gun...he is the parent. It would be child endangerment, of course, and he could lose the child. (R Shek, I know you were kidding).



TJR

 

[shawn stonbraker 2]

TJR, I was not presuming anything. If that was the case then you should have stated that ("have been a BSA leader for almost 7 years, and I have taken the NRA rifle safety instructions so please don't presume that you need to educate me on such matters of certification.") when you were telling R Shek how wrong it was to have kids 10 feet behind him and shooting a shotgun into something 4 feet in front of him. That's a total of 14 feet between the kids and any danger. In my opinion, no harm. In your opinion, harm. You ask for rules a regs on the matter, I post it. If you consider 4 feet "point blank" then I shoot alot of rabbits and small game with a shotgun that I shouldn't. Hell, I've shot a turkey at that close with a 12G 3"mag steel shot. I guess I shouldn't have called him in that close. My bad.



Enough of the rant, sorry. TJR, I do want to send congrats to your son though and good luck on getting Eagle. It is a great accomplishment for a kid nowadays to actually follow with something for as long as he has been. Sounds like he will be a well rounded adult. For that I say "Kudos" to you. In my opinion it starts with the parents. The dedication to get them to the meetings and being involed takes alot.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Stone said:

when you were telling R Shek how wrong it was to have kids 10 feet behind him and shooting a shotgun into something 4 feet in front of him. That's a total of 14 feet between the kids and any danger

Again, you assume I was worried primarily about the kids safety....I wasn't.



I was actually worried more about the safety of the shooter, what with the gun being shot into soil 4 feet away and possibly hitting a large rock that is unseen under the ground, and richoting and throwing rock and shrapnel in potentially any and all directions.



Would a legal shotgun range allow targets and to be setup 4 feet from the shooter? If not, I wonder why not?



Isn't there some rule about shooting that states that you should know with certainty what it is you are shooting at and that it is safe to shot at it? For example, you wouldn't just let kids in the range shoot at anything, but you want them to shoot at targets, specially constructed and a given minimum distance away. The ground 4 feet away doesn't meet that criteria to me.



Like I said before, I probably won't persuade anyone at this point, so I don't want to come off as some ahole; but I would be a little taken aback if a gun instructor put something on the ground and stood by it and shot it from 4 feet away. If the intent is to show the destructive nature of the gun then put the object you are destroying in front of the specially designed range target area and its protective background (typically a slopping steel plate for lower caliber or sandbags for higher), then step back behind the line, and shoot away.



As for shooting game within 4 feet, sure, I have done that too, but it's not that often you get that close to game. Usually when I shoot that close its to put a trapped (I used to trap) animal down. Even then, when I did that, I crouched down took careful aim, and made sure of what was behind the animal.



What one does alone when hunting is one thing; what one does when instructing other is something totally different.



I want to also thank R Shek for being active in Scouts. Shotgun instructors have to be 21, so making that commitment as an adult is also worth kudos.



TJR

 

[shawn stonbraker 2]

TJR, I was finished with the topic but again I'm brought back in. Anyway, Why would I "assume" anything? Maybe because you don't come right out and state exactly what you want to argue. It turns into some kind of game. You never once stated you weren't afraid for the kids, only the shooter. You just left that up to us. I'll leave this to you, I'm done with this subject. I "assume" you have covered all the points you wanted to. I will also throw this out there, If I "assumed" anything else that was taken out of context with anyone else here, I appologize. Game over.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Sorry, I wasn't playing a game, but since you don't want to assume anything I will leave my specific points I was hoping everyone could glean:



- Shooting at the ground 4 feet away is not 100% safe. Anyone claiming that it is is kidding themselves. Granted, nothing can ever be completely safe (for example, a gun could explode in your face), but instructors should always proceed with actions that assure reasonable, maximum safety.



- Instructing children on gun safety by doing the above, especially when on a range that has all the appropriate markings, distances, backstops etc, seems reckless and unnecessary.



So, go ahead, applaud the instructor that drops any old item besides him and takes aim because you think that he is giving the kids a good view of the real destructive power of a shotgun. Me, I'd rather applaud the instructor that sets up that same real-world item, carefully in front of the backstop, goes back behind the line, takes careful aim, shoots, then discusses the damage; as he or she has shown precaution and control. I can't help but think the whole "close proximity" aspect of what you and R Shek are describing is somehow meant to "better illustrate" through some sort of shock value what happens when you don't respect a gun, and I can appreciate that intent. But I don't think you illustrate that point by breaking that vow of respect, and I can't see how shooting things a few feet away, unnecessarily keeps that vow.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Oh, Stone, thanks for the kudos on our oldest son. He will be 14yo in May, and just earned Life. He is on the fast track and very motivated. We are discussing his Eagle project and I am assuring him that whatever it is, it has to "leave a legacy" that makes a difference no just now, but for generations. I never made Eagle...one of my several regrets in life.



His younger brother joins his same troop in March. They are both good, smart, well adjusted and respectful young men...each that still has a lot of BOY in them though (which is good).



TJR