I doubt there will ever be a terrorist attack on 9-11 again. There will be another terrorist attack, but it will be on a day and a method nobody will ever expect.
Tom
911 remembered !!
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I doubt there will ever be a terrorist attack on 9-11 again. There will be another terrorist attack, but it will be on a day and a method nobody will ever expect.
Tom
Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
God bless the families!
God bless the Rescuers!
God bless all our leaders (no matter what philosophy) with wisdom, temperance and strength!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
God bless the Rescuers!
God bless all our leaders (no matter what philosophy) with wisdom, temperance and strength!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Remember not to drink the Kool-aid folks. We are NOT under attack because Muslims don't like our freedoms or extremists don't like our version of Allah. Those are pat answers to a much more difficult question.
The "kool-aid" of which I speak is when we are told that the extremists are killing us because we are infidels. Yeah, that's the reason everyone thinks, but the truth is much more simple.
The TRUTH is that the US has propped up dictator after dictator in the Middle East, and each one has raped and pillaged their own country. These countries are the richest in the world, but a majority of their people live under the poorest of poverty and have absolutely no say. Would our poor in this country allow that, if said poor accounted for 90% of the population living in the richest country in the world?
So, we side with one country but not the other; we arm one country this decade and their enemy the next. We have done this for decades.
All this contempt and poverty breeds hatred, and all you need is for a few that are very intelligent to rise up, proclaim they are doing the work of Allah, and start a war against America...their oppressors.
It's as simple as that.
I won't debate IF we have had noble interests in the Middle East the past 60 years. That's not for me to decide. We have been there, and we have served our interest, and many aren't happy about that.
Whether we catch OBL or not is a moot point if we don't recognize WHY they really hate us.
TJR
The "kool-aid" of which I speak is when we are told that the extremists are killing us because we are infidels. Yeah, that's the reason everyone thinks, but the truth is much more simple.
The TRUTH is that the US has propped up dictator after dictator in the Middle East, and each one has raped and pillaged their own country. These countries are the richest in the world, but a majority of their people live under the poorest of poverty and have absolutely no say. Would our poor in this country allow that, if said poor accounted for 90% of the population living in the richest country in the world?
So, we side with one country but not the other; we arm one country this decade and their enemy the next. We have done this for decades.
All this contempt and poverty breeds hatred, and all you need is for a few that are very intelligent to rise up, proclaim they are doing the work of Allah, and start a war against America...their oppressors.
It's as simple as that.
I won't debate IF we have had noble interests in the Middle East the past 60 years. That's not for me to decide. We have been there, and we have served our interest, and many aren't happy about that.
Whether we catch OBL or not is a moot point if we don't recognize WHY they really hate us.
TJR
OMFG...TJR and I agree on something.
It is even deeper then what TJR touched on too. The USA has always exploited other countries for the good of the corporations. Because of that, many people have seen the standard of living go down, the percentage of rich to poor shift to the rich are richer and the poor are many more then before. They are tired of the US corporations causing rain forests getting cut down, citizens getting exploited, countries occupied by American Citizens, etc.
I have recomended a book to read in the past. I suggest anyone here to read it. Take it with a grain of salt, consider it hog wash, or take for what it is worth. Read it with an open mind. You will be suprised on what you are reading and so many things just make sense.
Tom
It is even deeper then what TJR touched on too. The USA has always exploited other countries for the good of the corporations. Because of that, many people have seen the standard of living go down, the percentage of rich to poor shift to the rich are richer and the poor are many more then before. They are tired of the US corporations causing rain forests getting cut down, citizens getting exploited, countries occupied by American Citizens, etc.
I have recomended a book to read in the past. I suggest anyone here to read it. Take it with a grain of salt, consider it hog wash, or take for what it is worth. Read it with an open mind. You will be suprised on what you are reading and so many things just make sense.
Tom
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
Happy Birthday to me, happy birthday to me..... Uh-huh, yeah.
The Muslim whackos have pretty much ruined the party for the rest of my life.
Five years ago today, about this time of day, I had just shooed everyone out of my office and sat down to finish my birthday cake and coffee, much as I'm doing right now.
Then I heard on the radio that a plane hit the WTC in New York.
I thought, "Wow. I wonder how that happened?"
A short while later they said a second plane hit the other tower. I said to my secretary, "That was no accident."
Spent the rest of the day listening to the radio and getting the office TV (that we only use for training videos) to work with the rabbit ears. Within an hour or two I guessed it was Muslim terrorists. Like that turned out to be a surprise.
Flight 93 would have flown right over me here. Two people from my class at a small western PA high school narrowly escaped. One was in NYC running the other way when the towers fell, another was in the Pentagon when it got hit.
9/11/01 was a Tuesday. Tuesdays at 3:30 is my golf league. I figured that if I let them change the way I do things then the bad guys win, so I opted to go play golf. One other guy showed up who felt the same way I did.
The county airport is near the golf course, with all the planes grounded it was very quiet.
We played 9, occasionally sticking our middle fingers toward the sky.
I never gave Muslim folks much thought before, now I don't like them very much. America knows who the enemy is even if the government can't or won't admit it. Political correctness will be the death of us.
The Muslim whackos have pretty much ruined the party for the rest of my life.
Five years ago today, about this time of day, I had just shooed everyone out of my office and sat down to finish my birthday cake and coffee, much as I'm doing right now.
Then I heard on the radio that a plane hit the WTC in New York.
I thought, "Wow. I wonder how that happened?"
A short while later they said a second plane hit the other tower. I said to my secretary, "That was no accident."
Spent the rest of the day listening to the radio and getting the office TV (that we only use for training videos) to work with the rabbit ears. Within an hour or two I guessed it was Muslim terrorists. Like that turned out to be a surprise.
Flight 93 would have flown right over me here. Two people from my class at a small western PA high school narrowly escaped. One was in NYC running the other way when the towers fell, another was in the Pentagon when it got hit.
9/11/01 was a Tuesday. Tuesdays at 3:30 is my golf league. I figured that if I let them change the way I do things then the bad guys win, so I opted to go play golf. One other guy showed up who felt the same way I did.
The county airport is near the golf course, with all the planes grounded it was very quiet.
We played 9, occasionally sticking our middle fingers toward the sky.
I never gave Muslim folks much thought before, now I don't like them very much. America knows who the enemy is even if the government can't or won't admit it. Political correctness will be the death of us.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
We ALMOST agreed Caymen. The whole "...for the good of the corporations" line and way of thinking is tired. Stop with the "US vs THEM" for a second, please. Corporations are made up of people, govt is made up of people. We are a democracy, we choose to work for corps and we elect our govt officials. "WE THE PEOPLE" are at fault, are in control, are to blame. We can't blame govt, or big evil corporations all the time, as if we have no voice and they aren't US. I am a PERSON, and I COUNT! It's my fault too! It's your fault, it's every American's fault. Until we think that way the problem WILL NOT be solved as we will continue to just shrug our shoulders and say: "oh well, that's our govt!", or "oh well...big evil corps...what I am to do?"
TJR
TJR
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Johnny O
Well-Known Member
I disagree. The "oppressed people", their problem is much more with their own governments than it is mine. Saddam didn't need our help to oppress people, neither does Kim Jong Il or Castro.
If you have a problem with my government, take it up with them. I don't like most of what they do either. Leave me and the plane I'm on out of it.
Oil money is what props them up more than anything and their primitive religion gets in the way of progress. Instead of adapting, they get pissed off and want to kill us.
I'd be entirely happy to drill for all our own oil and leave them alone forever. You can argue about our government being at fault (I don't), but the fact is that these people are still PO'd about the Crusades from 800 years ago when the U.S. wasn't even here.
If you have a problem with my government, take it up with them. I don't like most of what they do either. Leave me and the plane I'm on out of it.
Oil money is what props them up more than anything and their primitive religion gets in the way of progress. Instead of adapting, they get pissed off and want to kill us.
I'd be entirely happy to drill for all our own oil and leave them alone forever. You can argue about our government being at fault (I don't), but the fact is that these people are still PO'd about the Crusades from 800 years ago when the U.S. wasn't even here.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
>> I disagree. The "oppressed people", their problem is much more with their own governments than it is mine. Saddam didn't need our help to oppress people, neither does Kim Jong Il or Castro.
You can disagree all you want, but note that I never said that WE were the oppressors or that their people had a legitimate gripe against the US. I merely observed the situation in an unbiased fashion.
>> You can argue about our government being at fault (I don't), but the fact is that these people are still PO'd about the Crusades from 800 years ago when the U.S. wasn't even here.
Are you so sure about that? Or is that simply what you are being told and what THEY are being told.
It is EASY to program hate and a martyr mentality when you have nothing to live for and no way out of a painful life.
TJR
You can disagree all you want, but note that I never said that WE were the oppressors or that their people had a legitimate gripe against the US. I merely observed the situation in an unbiased fashion.
>> You can argue about our government being at fault (I don't), but the fact is that these people are still PO'd about the Crusades from 800 years ago when the U.S. wasn't even here.
Are you so sure about that? Or is that simply what you are being told and what THEY are being told.
It is EASY to program hate and a martyr mentality when you have nothing to live for and no way out of a painful life.
TJR
Mark Grumpy
Well-Known Member
They are separate. The two distinct operations are called OPERATION Enduring Freedom and OPERATION Iraqi Freedom. I'll let you decide which is which. Too many folks mistakenly put the two together. One regime was toppled before the other "war" even started. The actions n Iraq are no different than Yugoslavia in 99. There are just more well armed, well funded nut jobs making it a longer process.
Instead of arguing about whose fault all this is, why not just remember the ~3000 folks from 9/11 and the thousands that are trying to do something about it to protect your way of life.
grump
TomT
Well-Known Member
9/11 and where we are today can be blamed on many things, not just GWB. Heck you could even blame the USSR. The Taliban, Ossama, Al Qaeda, all were born because of the USSR's aggression on Afghanistan. Of course if they hadn't of lost that war then maybe there wouldn't have been a Soviet collapse.
For today, lets not dwell on the negatives. Say a prayer for everyone that lost their life on 9/11 and for all our troops.
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For today, lets not dwell on the negatives. Say a prayer for everyone that lost their life on 9/11 and for all our troops.
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Kevin Palmer
Well-Known Member
I made a life style change as a result of 9/11. I walked away from out family business and go to work every day remembering 9/11.
I must admit the change has also come with a good paycheck, but I did not make the move for the money. I made the move for the right reasons.
For me, 9/11 is nothing more than an other workday, as everyday, is critical to what I do now.
I must admit the change has also come with a good paycheck, but I did not make the move for the money. I made the move for the right reasons.
For me, 9/11 is nothing more than an other workday, as everyday, is critical to what I do now.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Grumpy said:
I do remember those that died and still feel for them and their families.
Still, I think it's an impossible job for all of us to "protect our way of life" if we don't understand and admit WHY this happened. Cliches like "they hate us because of our freedom", and "we have to defend our way of life" are part of the problem and fuel the continuing denial as to why this happened and will only assure that it happens again.
God Bless The Victims!
TJR
I do remember those that died and still feel for them and their families.
Still, I think it's an impossible job for all of us to "protect our way of life" if we don't understand and admit WHY this happened. Cliches like "they hate us because of our freedom", and "we have to defend our way of life" are part of the problem and fuel the continuing denial as to why this happened and will only assure that it happens again.
God Bless The Victims!
TJR
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
I was referring to Caymen.
Yup. If it's what they're being told and they believe it, it's kind of a moot point and it doesn't really matter if it's true. FWIW, I've heard quotes from assorted middle eastern dingbats about the Crusades.
Where we have a (one) problem is that western society is more about the individual and Muslim society is all about obeying the rules of Islam. Therefore, when I say that "Hey, I don't have anything to do with you people being oppressed (other than driving a gas-sucking SUV
)", well they don't see it that way. You are and represent the group you're in, the fact that you may personally disagree with what your group is doing doesn't register.Everyone who is not Islamic, and their particular brand of Islam, should be dead. And if they can kill themself while taking me and you out, so much the better.
So the only way to win is to take them out first. Fight fire with fire and hate with hate. I'm mad at Bush too, but because he hasn't had the military kill enough of them. That's how a war is won.
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Johnny, you say the only way to win is to take them out first...I don't agree. This is a war that has no winner. There will be no surrender.
I think the best we can do is to remove any immediate threats out there, and in addition change our foreign policy long-term. I don't see Pittsburg being a tarket anytime soon. There will always be a few nuts that are willing to die for a cause. My main point is that we have to stop giving people the cause.
I don't blame us for what happened. I don't forgive the terrorists for what they did. I can, however, understand how these things happened, and it is naive to think that we are in a conventional war and that it has a conventional means to victory (e.g. kill them all).
We can't undo what has been done. But we can stop repeating our same mistakes. We are trying to tell Iran they can't be a nuclear power. What gives us that right? Is it because we don't trust them? Because they aren't an ally? Why is that? Or is it simply that might makes right?
TJR
I think the best we can do is to remove any immediate threats out there, and in addition change our foreign policy long-term. I don't see Pittsburg being a tarket anytime soon. There will always be a few nuts that are willing to die for a cause. My main point is that we have to stop giving people the cause.
I don't blame us for what happened. I don't forgive the terrorists for what they did. I can, however, understand how these things happened, and it is naive to think that we are in a conventional war and that it has a conventional means to victory (e.g. kill them all).
We can't undo what has been done. But we can stop repeating our same mistakes. We are trying to tell Iran they can't be a nuclear power. What gives us that right? Is it because we don't trust them? Because they aren't an ally? Why is that? Or is it simply that might makes right?
TJR
C B
Active Member
OK President TJR, what's your call with Iran? Do we ignore them and hope they "do the right thing"? How do we "change our foreign policy" so we don't give terrorists a reason to kill us? I've read these same arguments for years now and they always break down with the specifics. What will you do, Mr. President? The clock is ticking.
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
Because we don't trust them, exactly. They are a terrorist state who would gleefully nuke other people. The Soviets could have nukes because they didn't really want to die either. The Iranians don't care if they die too. They're going to meet Allah and the 72 virgins. Gotta go, gotta go!
We're right, they're wrong.
We're better, they're not.
How many people here know about EHM's, SWEC, and Main to name a few? If we have no route to the information to know about what our government is doing, how can we be responsible? How can it be our fault?
Tom
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I guess I would do what we are currently doing in Iran. I would "trust but verify". Trust that their nuclear energy program is that, an energy program and not a weapons program, but verify that is the case. And, like our current government I would be very, very cautious of trying to "throw our weight" around and tell Iran what they "can and can't" do.
JohnnyO...there is ONLY one way to fight the war you are talking about, and it's "all-out!"...and that means "The United States of Middle-East America"....we would literally have to take over most of the Middle East. And I don't mean by toppling one regime after the other, and then allowing each country to setup their own elected government, because clearly that's not going to work for many of these countries (Iraq seems to be headed towards proving this). Instead, we literally need a third world war that is fought in the middle east, and with several countries government toppled and then long-term democratic governments established (long-term in that it will take 30 to 40 years of allied occupation of some level).
That's the only way to begin to win this one, IMHO, and that only cleans house in the middle east...it doesn't clean radical Islamic house in Europe or the US. I don't see how to win that. A world war purging of the Middle East like I describe would only make the non-Middle Eastern radical-Islamic ranks swell.
TJR
JohnnyO...there is ONLY one way to fight the war you are talking about, and it's "all-out!"...and that means "The United States of Middle-East America"....we would literally have to take over most of the Middle East. And I don't mean by toppling one regime after the other, and then allowing each country to setup their own elected government, because clearly that's not going to work for many of these countries (Iraq seems to be headed towards proving this). Instead, we literally need a third world war that is fought in the middle east, and with several countries government toppled and then long-term democratic governments established (long-term in that it will take 30 to 40 years of allied occupation of some level).
That's the only way to begin to win this one, IMHO, and that only cleans house in the middle east...it doesn't clean radical Islamic house in Europe or the US. I don't see how to win that. A world war purging of the Middle East like I describe would only make the non-Middle Eastern radical-Islamic ranks swell.
TJR
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