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Firedog79,



Here is something from Bart's original post...



My son doesn't want to sing them but fears a failing grade and reprisals from his classmates.
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Being someone that had to deal with almost the same circumstances, I totally understand how hard it can be to stand up for your faith, espicially when you are a child yourself. The school systems put some much time and energy into celebrating holidays such as Christmas that has nothing to do with why we go to school in the first place.



I totally understand the feelings Bart's son is going through.





Tom
 
Uh, stupid question, maybe...But have you or your son actually had any dialog with the choir teacher/director about his singing those particular songs? There's all this hubbub in this thread about political correctness, ad nauseum, when there may be a simple solution. Anything else before you talk to the choir teacher/director is conjecture and assumption. You don't know what you don't know. For example, maybe your soon could just stand there when the rest of the choir sings those songs (OK, maybe it might look dumb, but it's only an example). Or maybe there's are some stage changes where he can wait in the wings while they sing the religious songs, and go back out when they make another stage change. Or maybe he just doesn't do the show (without affecting his grade), or he does the show, but in another capacity (stage hand?).



And both of you need to understand this: that if he doesn't want to sing the music, AND he doesn't want to stand apart from the rest of the crowd and get noticed, that he can't have it both ways. If he's going to stand up for what he believes in, and going with the flow is not an option, then there WILL be results, impacts, or consequences (like getting noticed and being made fun of) for taking his stance that he may or may not be willing to weather. Basically speaking, if he's going to man-up about this, then he needs to man-up all the way. Anything else is just whining.
 
Bart,



I have sat on our towns Board of Education as a Board member for 7 years now.

I would contact the teacher who is in charge of the choir and have a meeting with the person one on one to discuss your sons feels on certain songs and by all mean back him up if he truely feels this way.

However, no one should force him to sing a song he feel uncomfortable singing, I would ask him if he has a solo or duet part or is he in the back ground with the 20 other students.If he says that he has a solo part or duet etc. singing it might just be that he is truly nervous and scared he will mess up and he may be using this as an excuse. Either way I would request a meeting with the teacher to discuss this and reach an acceptable way to resolve this issue.



Just a thought, the bottom line is you have to do what you feel is right for your son and you.At times being a Parent sucks but it comes with the territory.;)



Pete
 
I see no dilemma, but rather political correctness and intolerance running wild. Those songs are a part of our culture and our history. We should be able to celebrate that to some degree. Also, we should, to some degree, feel comfortable sharing in the celebration of other cultures without finding that offensive.



If it's really an issue, talk to the teacher, healthy communications can solve just about any problem.
 
I find "political correctness" completely offensive; therefore, IT should be banned...





PUUUUUUHHHHHH-LLLLEEEEEEEZZZZZE!!!



They can call it whatever they want...but it's a freaking CHRISTMAS concert!!



NOT intended as a personal attack on anyone, but...there were an awful lot of things I didn't want to do as a 12-year-old, but fortunately my parents had enough nads to make me fulfill my OBLIGATIONS and RESPONSIBILITIES, instead of all this touchy-feely, "Oh-my-poor-little-darling's-self-esteem-will-be-ruined" bull-droppings that parents get all worked up over nowadays.



I'm sorry, but it makes my blood boil when I hear a PARENT even CONSIDERING letting a CHILD (and like it or not, a 12-year-old is a CHILD!) make adult decisions [and therefore implying that said CHILD can process information and make choices on an ADULT level].



YOU are the PARENT; your main fuction in that capacity is NOT to be little Timmy's best friend, or to drive him from activity to activity, or to protect him from the big, bad world. No...your PRIMARY (if not ONLY) responsibilty is to produce a child who can be a contributing member of society. And, unfortunately, sometimes that involves doing things which might make you uncomfortable. But, once again...YOU have that responsibilty.
 
I'm sort of with Nelson, way up at the top, on this one. Seems rather odd in the fact that choirs and bands begin preparing for "Winter Concerts" way in advance. Why is this such an issue now? If this truly is your son's feelings, and he is comfortable discussing them (which is great by the way), then why did he not bring it up a while ago? Or did he? I can almost bet that the teacher, if you meet with her, will bring up the same point.



I have no doubts that if it is truly the issue though, that the teacher will/should offer a substiute assignment to earn the grade in class - kind of like those kids who, for one reason or another, cannot/will not disect in Science classes. As many have said, open communication is the best between, yourself, your son, and the teacher/school, collectively.



Just keep in mind, if YOU save the day this time, expect there to be other issues that your son will expect YOU to fix. Not a bad thing, but you may want to get him involved in the discussions as well. It will teach him how to stick up for himself and believe it or not, as a former teacher, it makes the teacher's life much easier if they can avoid the problem from the beginning.
 
If he doesn't want to sing a song then he shouldn't. Heck I go to church at times. I don't sing the songs. Why is he upset anyway singing a song? He isn't praying is he? If my son failed choir because of not singing a song I wouldn't care about it. What are grades about anyway when it comes to choir? Does he want to become the next Elvis Presley? Remember he is almost a teenager. You have a lot more issues ahead. This would be a good one to set down with him and get into his world. I would suggest you and him discuss the true meaning of Christmas. Personally I would love to hear silent night being sung. It gets me in the spirit of Christmas. If a Muslim song was beautiful I would like to hear it also.:lol:



Good luck on many future problems with your son!
 
I'm going at this with a bit different view, but the same result -



Being a Born-Again Christian, I personally find it an affront that they do sing Kwannza songs at a Christmas fesitval. Jewish songs (I can only think of one...) I don't have a problem with since Judism was the religion of Christ, who is of course the Reason for the Season.



I cannot imagine allowing my 12 year old (she's only 2 right now) to decide what religion is right for her. If she's in my house, she's going to church with my wife an I, period Amen. When she's 18 and in College, she can explore if she needs to.



However, if she's in a class that sings Kwannza songs, Jewish songs, fine. She MUST comply, even if I don't necessarily agree with it, it's about building character and prepping her for the "Real World" (and not that lame ass MTV show). I could get offended everyday with my job, but choose not to. Why? I've had enough dissappointment and offense in my life that I know life moves on. Every morning is a new day.



Now, if they were to sing Kwannza, Judism, and Islamic songs and completely ignore any and all Christian songs, then I have a problem.



Luckily, I live in the Bible Belt and the schools around here don't have a set big enough to take on the heavily Baptist community.



Bottom line is that it comes down to you the parent. It's your child and you need to do what is best in your opinion. You've seen enough opinions here already from everybody else. Parenthood is not being a best friend, but doing what is right, even if it's not what your child wants. Talk with the teacher and find out if there is more behind the story.



Good luck.
 
Yankeegator nailed it! Parents need to be parents!



BTW: Santa is one issue, but the "Tooth Fairy" is much more scary than Santa! Think about a big queer tooth breaking in your house and prancing around your bedroom while you sleep!
 
More politically correct BS!!!! If the others dont like the music, then they can use the great american right we all have and LEAVE!!
 
Like Caymen said (in his usual form), how dare a school celebrate the Christmas holiday. And children shouldn't shouldn't get any time off for the holiday
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Nope, I never said that. I simply said it is not a part of a child's education and the grade should not lay on that part of our school year.



Who cares about the fact that it's a national holiday and part of our culture and that school's are to teach our children about these things...you know...culture, heritage...etc.
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It is not our culture. It is only part of our culture. There are many people in the USA that does not celebrate Christmas. Many people in the USA practice no religion at all. There are many people from Asia, the Middle East, and northern Africa that do not celebrate Christmas, and if they did, they are not being true to their own religion.



And that last brilliant point: It's freedom from religion that the constitution mentions, someone just made a big typo in that article and it really has nothing to do with freedoms that protect the practice of religion.
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If myself, or my child, chooses not to participate in something that will challenge my beliefs, yet I "must" do if for a grade, that is a mild form of persecution. No other way to look at it. I am the furthest person from political correctness. I call a spade a spade and I don't care who it offends. Christmas is a religious holiday and religion is a touchy subject in life for all people.



Christmas is a religious holiday, not just a time for presents and Santa. I would ask your son if he is then going to refrain from celebrating Christmas altogether then, if he's so offended at it's theme. No? Still wants that Wii game? I thought so...
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Maybe Bart and his family doesn't celebrate Christmas in the first place. I don't know if that statement is true, I am only speculating. Simply put, you make the assumption that his kid is being lazy and just doesn't want to participate. We don't know the whole deal so lets refrain for assuming we know all the details.



Glad we could talk civil to each other. It is a nice new start for you.





Tom
 
The problem here, if we are to read between the lines with what Bart is saying, is that the choir isn't voluntary and that a grade is tied to it. Remove those two elements and there really is no issue, IMHO. Furthermore, those two elements (required and graded) may not be actual elements if we hear the "rest of the story"...maybe they are just "assumed" elements.



A public school should be able to have a "Holiday Concert" that has a medley of all different types of songs, but it should not single out one in an inclusive or exclusive manner any religion. Then, if one wants to sing, they sign up for choir, and they sing. No grade, no extra credit, as this is an extra-curricular activity.



If the choir is a whole "class" or entire set of grade-level type thing, wherein the whole class practices together during school time, then goes up in front of the audience at once, and if your child feels uncomfortable doing that, FOR WHATEVER REASON, simply have him or her talk to the music teacher...or if they don't feel comfortable doing that, schedule a time when you talk to them.



A grade should not be linked and nothing should be forced. I have never heard of a school that does either.



Lastly, about such programs...to never have a single song in the program like "Silent Night", but to have all the other Hanukah and Kwanzaa type songs is an affront and political correctness gone mad.



TJR
 
I think it's more about tradition then religion. If your in a choir, acting in a play, whatever, you have to forget your personal beliefs and go along with whats popular. These days it's christmas music and christmas plays. Like PRM said "Those songs are a part of our culture and our history." Why can't both religious freaks and atheists quit reading into the words and just enjoy the music? I don't understand why that's so damn hard.
 
hhhmmm, intersting reading and I find myself agreeing with most. Some of the older folks here will know that I am an atheist, by choice, not by brainwashing as mentioned above:



If she's in my house, she's going to church with my wife an I, period Amen.
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Anyway, I assume your son understands the concept of giving and receiving and the relative joy that can be derived from both? I would sit him down and explain that this time of year is not about the individual (him) but more about tradition, history and a philosophy of peace to all men. His participation in the choir and the concert is a gift to those that attend to experience the joy of the season - regardless of attendees personal opinion and religious preference. Have him understand that he doesn't have to believe the words, but that his participation would be no more than an act of kindness and a display of maturity and tolerance of others.



I would also ask what kind of music he listens to. I personally like Creed, not for the message, but I like the music. I also sing along to carols and such if I hear them while shopping. Doesn't make me a closet Jew, Christian or anything else.



grump
 
I collect Christmas music...all kinds; pop, blues, R&B, traditional, reggae, lounge, doo-wop, zydeco, gospel. Ripped some of my favorites to my mp3 player this year....about 20GB and 40 hours of music. Approximately 15% of the songs have overtly religious content (there's likely some social significance to that ratio).



Even though I'm secular minded and generally opposed to state sponsored religion, I can't help but think a Christmas season ( ...or whatever it's labeled) concert should contain some religious songs. A completely areligous mix seems somewhat artificial and contrived...a knee-jerk concession to the politically correct.



To a certain extent, all Christmas music has religious overtones. The music would not exist independent of the Christian holiday tradition. Such classics as "I saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus", "Grandma Got Run Over by Reindeer", or "The Chipmunk's Christmas Song" all reflect a holiday mood with obvious religious roots. The songs may not make mention of the birth of Christ, but they celebrate it, nonetheless.



If it were my son questioning the singing of religous themed Christmas carols, I'd tell him that the songs are part of an honest tradition...one that is worth preserving and maintaining...even celebrating, if it comes to that. To think of them as a corrupting influence is group-think at its worst.









 
The problem is that it IS a part of a child's education, to learn about holidays and why we celebrate them IS education. And of course, singing is part of the required choir education, so it's all education. And of course, as well, it's part of American tradition to celebrate in such a manner.
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Find me the teachers handbook that says we MUST celebrate Christmas or we will get a failing grade.



You don't even have a child. An analogy is suppose to compare 'like' events.
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You must have missed the "if myself" part of my statement. It's OK though.



Obviously we don't care what happens in other countries, the point is that Christmas is an American tradition, part of our culture and a national holiday. NATIONAL HOLIDAY means it is recognized NATIONALLY. Who care if a handful don't celebrate it? That doesn't change anything...
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Many of those people I mentioned call the USA home. That is my point. Just because it is a national holiday does not mean that I must celebrate it. I should not be required to celebrate a holiday as part of my "education".





Tom
 
Q, the Dec 25 holiday is national, but please read up on it before making the claim that it is solely of signficance to Christians ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas ). It's not Jesus's birth date, it's an adopted date that is not unique to the Christian holiday. Celebration around the time of the winter solstice predates Jesus. Likewise many of the things Americans think of as American Christmas traditions are of German or Dutch origin, and many aren't even Christian. The popular Santa Claus and evergreen Christmas trees, for example have got nothing to do with Jesus's birth, nor are they originally American or Christian traditions. In short, our national holiday is a catch-all holiday, equally about toys for kids and time off with your family than about Jesus Christ.



Celebrating holidays and reciting songs and prayers from religions in which you do not participate should not be a requirement of public education. One could argue that if you're not genuine about it, it's not even celebration, just patronization.
 

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