I'm gonna regret this

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The early winter celebration does indeed predate Christianity. Many of the customs and traditions were lifted from non-Christian religions. These facts may be of historical interest, but the are irrelevant to the issue of Christmas in its context as a modern era holiday. The contemporary amalgam of seasonal practices, both secular and non-secular, are inextricably twined with the Christian tradition...regardless of from whom, in ancient times, the Christians acquired their traditions.



Traditional and popular Christmas songs reflect a celebration of the modern Christian holiday. I know of none that were written to conjure up images of Saturnalia or other pagan holidays. Many popular Christmas songs were written by non-Christians. Irving Berlin, for instance, wrote "White Christmas". It's very unlikely that he had Hannukah in mind while doing so.
 
While the choir is singing religious Christmas songs :rolleyes: for the upcoming national holiday, have your son recite the Lord"s Prayer in reverse 3 times then chant the Rolling Stones' lyrics of "Sympathy for the Devil".



That should extinguish a few candles in the theater... :lol:
 
What would you do at work if you got a special project that you didn't agree with? Example, go hire 10 interns and they all have to be minority. Hmmm.....well, what I did was...I DID MY JOB and got it done. Did I mention to my supervisors and peers that I did not agree with this? Hell yeah. Life isn't all candy and video games (for the teenagers) and rear sway bars and getting rid of OEM shocks and tires (for us). No...it sucks sometimes and you do things in life that you don't necessarily agree with. You do it because you feel it is in your best interest. Fight the fights you can win...but ultimately, understand the consequences of your actions if you don't. I'm with Yankeegator. If that were my kid...I'd tell him to shut up, sing the songs, get your grade and move on...or don't sing and suffer the consequences. The maturity level of a 10-13 year old, I think, it's the parents responsibility to make decisions for your child. You can explain why you're making this decision for them (or with them) and that you understand their position on this matter. As they get to high school...it's on them with an open door policy from the parents.
 
Amen Hefhay!



Parents need to be parents!



The kid doesn't have a choice here. If you want him to sing, he should sing. If you don't want him to sing, then he shouldn't sing.



Why are parents afraid of their kids and afraid that they might offend their kids?



My parents whipped the hell out of me when I disobeyed their wishes. I wasn't able to quit activities or refuse to participate on my own. If they said I had to go to school, I went to school. If I had to sing in the church sunday school play, I sang in the church sunday school play. If they said I couldn't watch TV, I didn't watch TV.
 
Gavin (name of my son - BTW),



sounds like we grew up in the same type of house. You did what your parents told you. If my dad told me to do something...I did it. Why? The consequences. Like a foot up my arse. He was a bastard at times but you know what...I wouldn't change the way I was raised. I will not raise my kids that way but I understand why he did it. I have respect for my parents and the way I was raised. And today, I get along great with my parents. My goal is to do a better job raising my kids than my parents did with me...and I turned out pretty good.
 
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Gavin, I never took it as if Bart was afraid of his child or his role as a parent. I never took it that way in the least.



12 year olds should be able to voice their concerns to their parents. This concern is one of civil liberties, and one that I found quite grown up for a 12yo to have (which made me question to myself if it was really a genuine concern or one that has somehow been conditioned, but that's another issue).



Bart asked for advice because its a touchy subject. I suspect he asked for advice because he himself feels conflicted about the subject, and therefore couldn't "tell" his son what to do, regardless.



Bart's son asked "Dad is this right?" and rather than simply replying with "Just do it because I said so!" we have a dialogue....between son and father, father and community, and that's a good thing.



TJR
 
OK TJR, I can respect that the kid may have asked if it was OK. However, as a kid, I knew better than to ask questions or disrespect authority. When I was at school, it was made clear that right or wrong, my parents had given their authority over to the teachers, and the teachers served as my parents while I was at school. If I screwed up at school and got punished at school, I was assured to get a much worse punishment at home for disgracing myself and my family. My parents never bad-mouthed my teachers, and always supported my teachers in front of me. (I later found out that my parents did battle with some of my teachers and the school administration on some things, but they never let me know it at the time.)



Like Hefhay, I don't regret one bit how my parents raised me. I learned respect for myself and for others. I even find that my parents are getting smarter all the time, too.
 
I see Bart has not yet responded back probably because he IS regreting this. I think overall it has been a healthy discussion and it is interesting reading everyones views. It just shows that there is a wide variety of beliefs throughout this country. Bart should do whatever he thinks is right for his son, the son can obviously have some input and discussion but I agree with most that the choice is really that of Bart, at 12yo the parent is in charge. Obviously there is a lot that we all do not know in this situation that may have changed our responses. I still wonder if the big issue is indeed one of religion or if there might be another underlying issue here, like being nervous of singing, or just trying to challenge the system. I still do not beleive that the school would ever force his son to sing the song if his concerns were voiced.
 
Tell him to Lip Synch it. It worked for Milli Vannili....for a little while at least. Just do not take lessons from Jessica Simpson's sister.



JT#14





 
Gavin, given that I am 41 years old I was raised pretty much the same way. My parents taught me to respect authority, and they were the kind of parents that if I got in trouble in school, they would have no problem if a teacher cracked me up-side-the-head, and when I got home, I knew I would get it twice as bad.



Yes, today, many kids don't respect authority the way they should, and parents are often too quick to assume authority is wrong and their "angels" are right.



But that's NOT the issue here. We all SHOULD be able to question authority, not blindly follow it.



I think you have read in more to what Bart was saying and it struck a nerve with you about respect for authority and lax parenting, but I don't think it should have as it sounds like Bart is doing a fine job and his son questioning something that should be questioned.



TJR
 
By definition, a choir typically performs church music.



choir Pronunciation (kwr)

n.

1. An organized company of singers, especially one performing church music or singing in a church.

2.

a. The part of a church used by such a company of singers.

b. The part of the chancel in a cruciform church that is occupied by this company of singers.

3.

a. A group of instruments of the same kind: a string choir.

b. A division of some pipe organs, containing pipes suitable for accompanying a choir.

4. An organized group: a choir of dancers.

5. One of the orders of angels.

intr.v. choired, choir·ing, choirs

To sing in chorus.

[Middle English quer, quire, from Old French cuer, from Medieval Latin chorus, from Latin, choral dance; see chorus.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
 
Yankeegator says:
"We" meaning ADULTS...which a 12-year-old--no matter HOW mature--is NOT!
Click to expand...



So the 12yo that is being molested by his priest shouldn't talk to his parents, questioning if that is right. Or the same kid ridiculed and belittled by a teacher in front of other students should not question those actions by authority. Or, when the 12yo believes that their school is potentially violating the Constitution, he should again, not question it?



Right!



Remember, Bart didn't say his son "questioned authority", he said that is son talked to him about his concern.



We SO want that dynamic in our world today. Children that respect authority, but still use open communication with "well grounded" parents whenever they are unsure if "authority" is doing the right thing.



There should be no blind faith in authority...regardless the age. You are right, it's not up to the minors to directly question authority....that's the job of their parents.



TJR
 
12 year olds should be able to voice their concerns to their parents. This concern is one of civil liberties, and one that I found quite grown up for a 12yo to have
Click to expand...



UN mubo jumbo. My 12 year old will have the same rights that I did when I was 12.... Eat, sleep (when homework is done), go to school, be clean, be respectful to authority.



A violation of any one of these get the privleges taken away. I never had a video game system growing up (even though I so wanted a Nintendo or Sega Genesis), but I had TV and computer privledges. If I messed up, they were gone.



"Human Rights" do not include violating what the parent say to do. My dad ruled with an iron fist in my house. We did not get beat for no reason, but we knew that if we disobeyed, a spanking was in order. As we got older, if we disobeyed, things like the car, TV, computer, etc were gone.



A 12-year-old is still a child. They will act like a child, and think like a child. That is why my 12 year old will not be making decisions on religion or on what's fair in the world and what's not. I would not have done so at 12 because I would have been told the way things were going to be while living under my parents roof. Even at 21 when I was home from college during the summer, I STILL had to play by their rules. It's part of life. I am nearly 29 now. When my wife, Daughter and I go to their house, I am still partly expected to help out if something is needed and do what they ask (or tell) me to do. My daughter is no different. If they tell her to do something, she better do it (she's 2, so there's really not a lot of that other than "don't touch" or "get down").



When my daughter is capable of making said decisions, she will be allowed to. The key for my wife and I is to not "force" our religion on her, but rather to encourage her in religion. I don't care if at 21 she wants to go join my parents' church (Catholic), go to a Baptist church or stay with our Pentecostal/Non-Denominational church, as long as it's Christian and teaches the Word. If she want's something other than that, there will be a long tough talk. But with my wife helping me raise her, we won't have to worry about that.



Bottom line, she is MY daughter, MY responcibility until at least age 18, and MY LIFE. I will do what is best for her, weather she likes it or not. My dad was not my second-best friend until I was 23 (my wife is my best friend). My dad and I are closer now than ever. Would I change that? HELL NO! My wife is the same way with her mother. They were always close, but now they have something special in common. But when she was 15-16, my wife and her mother disagreed on a lot of items.



That is why a child cannot make all the decisions. Plain and simple.
 
R Shek, I think that you and SEVERAL other people here are turning this into a THING where nothing exists.



You seem to be turning this discussion into a "kids have no rights and kids need to do what their parents say" debate. It wasn't about that from Bart's post...why stray off topic?



I agree that kids should do what their parents say, but kids do have some rights.



It is HEALTHY for a child to be able to talk to their parents when they think they are being treated unfairly, or unjustly by authority. DO YOU GUYS AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THAT LAST STATEMENT?...Answer the question!



You guys are turning that into something else, I fear. Note that no place in Bart's original post did he say: "I told my kid to sing and he said NO!" or "I told him he should sing and he keeps questioning WHY?"



It was a discussion between son and father about whether or not authority was acting justly and within it's power. Last question: Why do such discussions between father and son seem to "scare" so many of you?



TJR
 
That would be me Q. Note that I am a Republic, not a Democrat, so as I talk about civil liberties, please keep that in mind (I am not your typical "bleeding heart").



Abuse of authority is abuse of authority, regardless the severity. If authority oversteps its bounds, it should be able to be put in check. Children should NOT do this checking or questioning, but children SHOULD be able to talk to their parents about concerns in this area.



At least most children should be able to. Others will yield to the will of authority because they have been instructed by their parents that respect for authority means never questioning authority (which is what I read into the off-topic rants here). I suspect many of these same children will grow up with a very severe authority issues and look at all authority with distrust because they were never shown early on how to engage with authority and discuss your concerns. I see some people like that here. ;)



Enjoy!



TJR
 
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I guess that's what I have been trying to do, Q, with my last couple of questions, understand the off-topic rant and then redirect to the topic.
 
There is another issue that has crept into this thread apart from the civil liberties issue: specifically the nurturing parent vs strict father family models. There is a strong correlation between the issues, with Christians and conservatives being much more likely to side in favor of the strict father model. This is an issue where you will find a fundamental, usually irreconcilable divide. For those who are sure what I'm talking about, the most clear examples above are the post from Gavin extoling the strict father model (i.e. question authority figures and you can expect a boot up your ass) and the way Bart is leaning--a nurturing model whereby parents actually listen to the concerns of their 12-year old, respect his views and find a solution that does not involve dad's belt.



As you can probably guess, I'm NOT a supporter of the strict father model, and the reason is its fundamental flaw: Beating a child into submission is not teaching any kind of respect, it is simple control by FEAR. You don't beat someone you respect, and you can't expect someone you beat to respect you. Respect is a 2-way street, earned both ways.



I also don't agree that there is some magical age at a child becomes an adult in his/her ability to decide what is right or wrong. This kind of growing up happens to different kids at different ages, and it sounds to me like Bart's son know exactly what he's asking of his father. "A 12-year old is just a child who needs to be taught his place" is, from my viewpoint, ignorant avoidance of the real issue here.



"My parents raised me this way and I turned out fine..." is the biggest cop out in the history of parenting. You generally only hear this from parents who have some (possibly buried) guilt about how they are raising their kids. It's an excuse not to do the work to find a better way.



 

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