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KL, if that point comes, they could go the route of a Constitutional amendment.



Or, could they weasel out of having the USPS by playing with the word "establish"? After all, it doesn't say that they need to maintain or assure the continued existence of them--only that they establish them, a task which was completed a long time ago.
 
Bill V, I'd hope that when the USPS dies that the Government would do as you posted and say "Well guys, we established a post office, and now it's defunct. Oh well."



But I don't trust it from exploitation, and our Supreme Court doesn't have a good record of checking such exploitations.
 
That pesky "Establish post offices and roads" clause could be abused...who am I kidding? It will be abused, in creative ways only fiendish anti-American lawyers can dream up, probably while working pro bono.



You mean like the "General Welfare" and "Interstate Commerce" clauses have been horribly perverted and abused?:angry:



"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." --James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, 1792
 
KL,

USPS can never use Email as a carrier of official mail. Email is insecure inherently, and that would wreak havoc with the fact that reading another's mail is a felony.



If you are only thinking of conventional email as we are all accustomed to using now, they that would not work. Instead think in terms of proprietary USPS email formats with encryption and VPNs and with communications only between you and the post office which runs a propietary operating system. Your device has a specific ID like a MAC address and does not talk to anyother device accept the USPS computer.



Again, That's called thinking outside the box. Just because commone email is not secure does not mean that no email is secure nor that it cannot be made secure. I have been in the IT field for over 44 years now, and given the time and budget you can do almost anything you want with computers and they can be made secure.



Also, if the postal service uses email, then that gives the government carte blanche to have oversight over email exploitation of the text of the Constitution. Government oversight of the internet will meet with stalwart opposition, thankfully.



If the government wanted carte blanche to have oversight over email, they could do it now, and they are doing it now if they are investigating terroist, or drug dealers, etc. While I don't think we need more laws, we do need more laws to restrict what the government and politicians can do, and to insure they are not stepping on the rights of honest, law abiding citiizens.



if you want a simple computer that you don't have to do much with, that already exists. It's called a Mac. Unlike PCs, macs can go for years without needing upgrades. They're easy to use, and yet they do not have limited functionality.



I am talking about a preprogramed single function email only device to keep the cost down and retain security on the device. The device would be only used to connect to the post office and be totally useless to anyone else for any other reason. The device would be inexpensive and so simple to operate that even technology challenged seniors would not have any fears or problems using the device



What do you mean by "could check [your] mail daily"? You mean that you don't check your Snail Mail daily?!



Yes, that's exactly what I mean. There are people who are on the road a lot or who go on vacation and do not see their mail until they return. Well, if all USPS mail was electronic, you could take your USPS mail device with you, or run the special software on your laptop and be able to check your mail when ever you wanted...just like regular email.



Also, you won't have to have a relative pick up your mail, or have the post office hold it until you return from vacation, etc. For the elderly or handicapped, they won't even need to make a trip out to the mailbox.



Yep, it just gets better and better. I'm sure you disagree, but then there are always doubter who say that can't be done, or that won't work because it has been tried before. In reality they just don't want any changes and assume nobody else does either.



About a year ago, all TV broadcast were switched from Analog to Digital broadcasts making everybody's old analog TV obsolete....but for the most part everyone is still watching TV, even on their old sets and the world did not end. A simple, inexpensive converter box allowed the older analog TV's to continue picking up all the channels they did before. If you were on Cable or Satellite TV, you did not have to change anything.



The only people who complained were the doubters, and procrastinators who said it would never happen, or waited too late to get their converter box and all the $40 discount coupons were gone.



You know somebody had to be thinking out of the box to pull that off as smoothly as it did. I even had my doubts that it would work, but it did. So obviously, better minds than yours or mine worked out all the details for that conversion.



...Rich
 


USPS can never use Email as a carrier of official mail. Email is insecure inherently, and that would wreak havoc with the fact that reading another's mail is a felony.



I believe this is way over-blown. You can now request just about any bill you receive on-line and pay on-line. People read other people's mail everyday. The magazine you see your postal delivery person reading on his lunch isn't his (or hers), it's part of their delivery. The USPS is antiquated, delivers too much crap at reduced rates, and will be replaced either by techology or private industry in the not too distant future.
 
UPS is pretty expedient, and it is a better deliverer of packages IME than USPS.



And as we are all in agreement (I believe) on, packages are the only things that need to be physically delivered in this modern age.



RL, all of your scenario could play out, but it would be so much easier just to let USPS die (as it already has financially) and just use email as it is.



Your plan says that if you force seniors to use what amounts to email, they will. Letting USPS die will force them to use email just the same, and it is cheaper and less complicated.



Your TV comparison is a good analogy for my idea here, since Analog tv was booted out and everyone was forced into the superior Brave New World of Digital TV, so could everyone--including luddites of all ages--would be forced into the superior new world of all digital mail.



Oh, and with USPS dead, and you use UPS for the physical deliveries that remain, they already can email you when they arrive, and hold them at headquarters until you request them or go down and get them yourself, so that problem is already solved. (Fedex also does the same IME)



Occam's Razor--we agree on the change, let's use a simpler solution.

 
One thing the "abolish the USPS" ideas proposed here don't address is communication where more individual touch is desired than anything e-mailed or electronic. There is still a large portion of the population, in all age groups (although I'll admit that it tends to skew to more prevalence with increased age), who still values the personal touch that a handwritten thank you note, or a handwritten letter, or greetings and holiday cards, convey, that there is simply no electronic substitute for yet. Sure, you could ship them via UPS or Fedex--but that's simply not economically practical for most people. (And yes, I'll admit that part of what is ailing USPS is that they continue to have rates at which things like this remain economically practical--but that's another separate conversation.)



And regarding the age of people who value this form of communication skewing away from the younger generation--in this particular case, I think that it has as much to do with maturity of values as it does with comfort with technology. And for that reason, the desire for that form of communication to be available likely won't simply die off with the baby boomers.
 
KL, I agree with your point about Occam's Razor.



All things being equal, the simplest solution is best.



IMHO, a simpler (maybe not simplest) solution to killing the USPS is to expedite the adoption of email and electronic billing. That is simpler because the technologies and trends are already in place for doing that. I certainly don't think retaining the USPS as an entity that has its own technology, security, etc, for exchanging electronic communications for use by today's luddites is a simpler than that, and definitely not simple at all.



TJR
 
KL,

UPS is pretty expedient, and it is a better deliverer of packages IME than USPS.

I must disagree on that. I started my LeverLift business using UPS to ship my product...That lasted about 2 weeks when 7 of the first 10 orders I shipped lost damaged in shipment. I switched to USPS priority mail, which was cheaper, faster and out of the thousands of shipments, only one shipment arrived about 10 days late. I had actually mailed packages on Saturday and they arrived on Monday...You can't do that with UPS because they don't work on Saturday.



And as we are all in agreement (I believe) on, packages are the only things that need to be physically delivered in this modern age.

Yes, except there will be documents like birthcertificates, car titles, drivers licenses, passports etc that are commonly mailed but contain embossed seals from the state or Federal agencies that "Copies" in any form are not acceptable.



RL, all of your scenario could play out, but it would be so much easier just to let USPS die (as it already has financially) and just use email as it is.



That too is a vialble option. But I think the USPS could still be resurected and still be profitable. By streamlined to a form of electronic mail, most of their expensive manpower requirements will be gone. So yes, their jobs would be lost as predicted, but the USPS infastructure is still in tact and can still be used even if it was turned over to completely to a separate part of UPS or FedEx. And since UPS and FedEx already have a similar infastructure they may be able to take over some of the USPS duties until a final solution can be implemented. The only problem I see with UPS and FedEx taking over the USPS system is the USPS volumes are so staggering that I don't thing either company, or together they could withstand that. They would soon fall into the same situation that USPS is in now.



We need some way to reduce the sheer volume of mail going through the post offices and to do that you need to get rid of junk mail, or raise the price so high that nobody would consider using that for mass mailings. The second part would require rate hikes on all mail including business class mail that is presorted. Again, I think $1.00 for each first class letter would be fair. Companies that now do mass mailings would be better off switching to an electronic mail format.



I am in favor of using a different format of electronic mail than the current form and some sort of simplistic device that seniors and handicapped people can use, that cannot receive spam, or viruses, or spyware, etc. We need security so that nobody can spoof an email address, or crack into someone elses electronic mail device and use it to send out bogus mail or see other peoples mail. Something that senior or the technology challenged would not be affraid to use.



...Rich
 
RL, come on, a passport is a multipaged booklet containing electronics, it would have to be mailed. And a drivers' license requires the card to function. I believe those count as items to be packaged and mailed, not as documents that could be digitized.



While a birth certificate, and to think, diplomas could not be legal in a digitized form, which I did not mention, they could certainly be a rare exception of a document that could be mailed in a package. I'd put it in a catch-all with original artwork and large documents that a receiver wouldn't have the ability to print properly, such as a blueprint.



Regardless, a box and UPS/FedEx/DHL solves that issue.



As for UPS not working on Saturdays, UPS works on Saturday...it just doesn't deliver packages, except at a higher cost. UPS hasn't failed me, but USPS and FedEx have both delivered me mauled packages and lost packages....which is surprising, because I used to work for UPS, so I know that packages are not treated gently.



I've no allegiance to USPS, I wouldn't mind seeing them go. A private company, pre-obama, would have died by now, and while streamlining the process could make things better for USPS, it costs $ and they're already the number one purchaser of red ink for their books.



But hey, if the US government would agree to kill Amtrak as a sacrifice to keep USPS going, I could sign onto that, as while I firmly believe that a bankrupt company like USPS should die, I really hate Amtrak with a passion.
 
A private company, pre-obama, would have died by now,



Gotta beg to differ with you there, KL. GWB bailed out the banks, rather than letting them die. Were they really "too big to fail", or would more solvent institutions have filled the void in a truly free marketplace? No one knows for sure now. Also, GWB gave GM their first bailout funds by distorting the meaning/intent of the TARP Act.



And the Federal gov't didn't let Chrysler die the first time either...
 
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RL, come on, a passport is a multipaged booklet containing electronics, it would have to be mailed. And a drivers' license requires the card to function. I believe those count as items to be packaged and mailed, not as documents that could be digitized.



These could be delivered to the local courthouse or city hall and picked up.
 
TT, I was trying to forget GWB's faux pas in Capitalism....actually, I did forget about those. Thanks :grin:



But I went with "pre-obama" because all that "too big to fail" legislation that his administration has enacted all but guarantees that USPS will be around forever, while before that we could at least hope that companies in the Red would end up Dead.



These could be delivered to the local courthouse or city hall and picked up.

That too...and that has the advantage of being more secure than your mailbox anyhow.
 
And as we are all in agreement (I believe) on, packages are the only things that need to be physically delivered in this modern age.

I disagree. What about hand-written thank you notes? Birthday cards? Wedding invitations?
 
bill v,



even those are dying off. christmas cards in particular.

i happen to agree with caymen, that for the cost mailing a standard letter in the US is still a very good rate and service.

when it gets to larger items (boxes) UPS is probably better. DHL is the best at international service.

an overnight letter is better with the USPS then thye private companies.

in general, the mail volume is dropping off with new technologies being developed.

 
KL,



RL, come on, a passport is a multipaged booklet containing electronics, it would have to be mailed. And a drivers' license requires the card to function. I believe those count as items to be packaged and mailed, not as documents that could be digitized.

birthcertivicates



I said that we would need a mail service to deliver some documents like passports, drivers licenses so please reread my post. It appears you misread my post. It appears you are in agreement that there are some documents that cannot be accepted in an electronic or digitized format and would have to use some form of snail mail delivery. And I also said that UPS or FedEx could do that.



My real question is; would UPS or FedEx want to do that, and do the have the infastructure to take over the full load of the USPS and the daily increase of millions of pieces of mail? I don't think they can do it without a huge infusion of cash to be able to handle such a huge increase in volume. I don't know the exact numbers but I would guess that the USPS volume is easily 10 times the volume of UPS and FedEx combined.



Also think about how FedEx works...Everything FedEx picks up in a day, is sent to their Memphis headquarters where it is sorted, and loaded on another plane to go to the FedEx office closest to the destination. Could FedEx in Memphis even handle even half of USPS's daily load of mail?



Are we going to have to pay UPS or FedEx prices to ship a letter? Are we going to have to use their barcode lables to send a simple lett...after all that's what keeps their packages moving so fast is all the automation.



If that's the case, why not automate the USPS like FedEx? Why not charge FedEx rates for USPS mail and USPS will be a solvent, viable service again? The government bailed out the banks, why can't we bail out the USPS?



...Rich





 
The government bailed out the banks, why can't we bail out the USPS?



The American taxpayer has been subsidizing the USPS for years. They under-charge for the crap you receive, don't read and throw away. USPS needs to change or go away. Three day delivery per week would cut the workforce in half, thus saving billions of dollars.
 

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