Received this interesting email today

[gary s]

tz, excellent post !

it sounds like the canoe was a smart way of moving foward



on a side note , today i went to the GM 2008 model preview for fleet customers. alot of top management telling us that they are headed in a "new" direction. in my opinion, not very much to offer, although they did say they were improving the interiors of most vehicles as they realize they were not of good quality. they need to do more than that as is the other domestics as well. alot of blah,blah,blah.

when you do the cleanup in aisle 9, you might want to use this...

[Broken External Image]:

 

[Gavin Allan]

Their plants are all in right-to-work states (no unions), and they were built here for a reason. The parts are still built overseas, but the vehicle is assembled here to avoid the import taxes (As much as $10k per vehicle). The profits still go overseas, too.

Sorry, but I have worked for several Tier I suppliers. We made lots of parts for Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. Funny about the quality control: Honda and Toyota were very tough, but encouraged us to make changes not on drawings to help cut costs and improve appearance and assembly. Nissan was pretty reasonable. Ford wanted tons of documentation- they were tough, but doable. Chrysler was tough, but doable too, not too interested in documentation. For GM, I swear we could crap in a box and ship it and they wouldn't care.



Also, as MTU points out, the "foreign" automakers provide a BUNCH of very good-paying jobs to employees of Tier I and Tier II suppliers, plus all the materials and service folks that are also needed. These jobs may not be $40 an hour, but they are very high wages compared to what else is available. To me, that sounds like a bunch of profit is staying in the US and providing jobs and a very good standard of living.

 

[Dingo]

First of all, I'm not all anal about domestic vs. foreign cars. I say buy the product that makes you happy.



Secondly, basic economics... The money paid to employees and suppliers isn't profit. It's overhead. Profit is what's left after all that crap is paid. And it goes to Japan/Korea, etc.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Dingo said:

Profit is what's left after all that crap is paid. And it goes to Japan/Korea, etc.

And how is that profit that goes to Japan or Korea any different than the profit that stays in an American bank and with an American company? How is the profit that stays in the states "that much better?"



Please explain, Dingo.



TJR

 

[gary s]

 

[Tom Schindler]

Sad, but oh so true! Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages. Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US.

Remember all of us going to the LAP meet? Border patrol was terrible. My father had a hell of a time crossing the border everyday he went to work for Ford Motor Company.



Ford moved ALL of it's plants outside of the USA? Yea, Walton Hills, Ohio is outside of the USA, just like Avon Lake, OH; Cleveland, OH; Louisville, KY; Dearborn, MI; Wallhaven, MI: and many others.



There are currently about 27 plants Ford has operating in the USA.



Toyota gets a "pat on the back" for 12 plants.



I am impressed with Toyota. Gooooo Toyota!





Tom

 

[Dingo]

Tom, money that is paid in any given country to a person/entity is traditionally spent by that person/entity in their home country.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Dingo answers:

Tom, money that is paid in any given country to a person/entity is traditionally spent by that person/entity in their home country.

Dingo also said:

The money paid to employees and suppliers isn't profit. It's overhead. Profit is what's left after all that crap is paid. And it goes to Japan/Korea, etc.

I'm a little confused. I thought we were talking about profit, not money paid. You yourself said above they are different.



Yes, money paid to employers and suppliers makes its way back into the economy in a big way.



However, you yourself said that monies paid isn't profit and I agree. Monies paid help the local economy yet it's not sure how profit does.



I made the point that profit doesn't really impact the local economy as much as wages paid, etc, and that profit's big impact is in shareholder value and in keeping the company afloat so that it can pay wages in the future...which works well for the local economy regardless where the company is headquartered.



So, I'll ask again...how does profit going overseas when the company employs locally hurt the US? How is profit that stays in the states so much better?



Please try to answer without talking about monies paid, because you yourself said that's not profit.



Thanks!



TJR

 

[Josh Langel]

That's like 27 people in one boat "A", each jumping off one at a time and then there's the other boat "B" with 12 people where a new passengers begin to join ... eventually boat "B" will have more than boat "A," but unfortunatelly, all those on boat "A" won't get onto boat "B."

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

Well this hits home for anyone who works for a living and is a lesson that no matter what kind of propaganda you hear, the middle class can only be brought back by paying fair living wages. Ford did this in the beginning, and low and behold, all the employees bought Fords. The only chance for the working man to achieve the American dream with his or Her family is to have a fair wage. We cant be a strong country when we manufacture NOTHING. Im sounding a little like a politician here, but why should we sacrifice our standard of living when China, Singapore, India...etc can keep thier people in utter slave like conditions, follow no Pollution laws, and then dump sub par goods on our shores. The rush to 'globalize" is a very bad thing for the average American. The big boys stand to benefit though.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Oklahoma City had a GM plant until last year. Oklahoma is a "Right to Work" state. It didn't make a difference, because no one wanted to buy the vehicles built in the plant. GM and Ford did not build vehicles that can survive in a World with $3+/gal fuel prices. Now they are suffering the consequences.



They either need to bring their European designs to the US, or they will continue to lose market share to overseas manufacturers. Sad to say, but I see some awesome Renaults and Fiats over in Europe, that would kick Fords butt in the US. I hate French cars, but they look nice , are fuel efficient, and perform well. I think the Focus is the only car that even comes close from Ford, and it looks horrible.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Frank says:

The only chance for the working man to achieve the American dream with his or Her family is to have a fair wage.

True on the fair wage part, but the working man, like the family farmer before him, will have to find an alternative vocation for that wage. Changes like this don't happen overnight. All this change really means is that there will no longer be several generations in a family working for the same company, doing basically the same job; and it will even mean that a working man will likely have several jobs in possibly different fields throughout his lifetime. Get used to it folks...wishing you could punch a clock for 25 years and then spend the rest of your time in Fla is gone.



Frank also said:

We cant be a strong country when we manufacture NOTHING.

Says who? We will never manufacture "nothing", but even if we manfacture much less in the future then we have in the past, as long as we are economically viable as a country we will still have the ability to get what we need. No country is an island anymore.



Frank also said:

Im sounding a little like a politician here, but why should we sacrifice our standard of living when China, Singapore, India...etc can keep thier people in utter slave like conditions, ...

Actually, you are wrong there. The trade that we do with China and India is drastically improving their standard of living and quality of life. Their Middle class is thriving, and by all real economic indicators ours isn't hurting and most definately isn't declining at any alarming rate. There is no "scarcity" of good fortune in globalization. For China to get richer it needn't and doesn't mean that American has to get poorer, and so far we are seeing just the opposite is happening. As China prospers so does the US.



Frank also said:

...follow no Pollution laws,...

These are soveriegn nations, we can't just force them to not pollute anymore than England or France could have forced the US at the turn of the last century when our country polluted the air during the industrial revolution. Yet, through sanctions and treaties we are working with China and others to curb pollution and it is helping.



Frank also said:

...and then dump sub par goods on our shores.

Nobody is DUMPING anything. Capitalism is based on supply and demand. The goods that we get from China, for example, are the ones that are demanded. Dumping implies them giving us stuff we didn't ask for...that's simply NOT the case.



Frank also said:

The rush to 'globalize" is a very bad thing for the average American. The big boys stand to benefit though.

Right! Like the death of the family farm was a bad thing for the average American; like the industrial revolution and the technology that came about that displaced laborers was a bad thing for the average American; like computers and the advancements they made that displaced clerical workers and other jobs has been bad for the average American; like specialization and outsourcing that caused companies to "let go" their accountants, payroll, HR and other people and focus on their core business was a bad thing for the average American; like Northeast factories moving South was a bad thing for the average American....I could go on...



The point is that the only thing we can count on is that things will change. Trying to keep them from changing is what is truly bad for the average American.



It would be better for the "average American" to stop BEING AVERAGE and instead opt to be exceptional, to make change his B!tch, and make that change work to his advantage.



TJR

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Good post Tom (TJR). It is so true about change. People either lead the change or get left behind. I prefer to lead the change, and I think a lot of Americans feel that way. The problem is that a lot of Americans have become lazy and don't want anything to change. Those people are a drag on the economy and prevent America from leading the World in productivity. They continue to whine that all the manufacturing jobs are going overseas. They need to realise that this is progress. They need to re-train into a more useful job. We have a huge shortage of engineers in this country. If my job were being eliminated, I would be enrolled in some classes, not sitting in a bar with my buddies, or online here whining about how the "good" jobs are being outsourced to India and China.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Nelson,



Very brave post there (lazy, sitting in a bar)!



As I said, a good brave post which I agree with in many ways, but I can't compliment you more as I have to get my asbestos suit on...



TJR

 

[Nelson Atwell]

The only ones it will offend are the ones who see themselves doing exactly that. Maybe it will be a wakeup call. :lol:

 

[Gavin Allan]

They need to re-train into a more useful job. We have a huge shortage of engineers in this country. If my job were being eliminated, I would be enrolled in some classes, not sitting in a bar with my buddies, or online here whining about how the "good" jobs are being outsourced to India and China.

Don't wait too long--they don't want to hire folks over 50 due to high medical costs and the fact that folks over 50 probably won't work for the wages they can pay a 20-year old!

 

[Nelson Atwell]

So true. The US government doesn't worry about that though, so a civil service job could be a good option for older workers. Check out USAJobs.gov for openings.

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

I have to disagree with Nelson. The American workers productivity is at an all time high. The hours worked by the American worker is also at an all time high. There is forced overtime and people are still having to have both parents work to make ands meet. Sounds like you are a little out of touch there. I do agree that some people will be left behind. But it isnt because they are all sitting in a bar. Pretty callous post Nelson. Sounds like you may be in Management somewhere.

 

[WXMotorSports DecalsPartsAccs]

Just hire some good postal workers...LOL I'm tired of getting my neighbors mail when the box is clearly marked inside and out who the resident is. Just plain freakin lazy arse workers at the post office.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Frank says:

Sounds like you are a little out of touch there. I do agree that some people will be left behind. But it isnt because they are all sitting in a bar.Pretty callous post Nelson. Sounds like you may be in Management somewhere.

Translation: How dare you point a finger at people and stereotype them like that? The problem is the “good for nothing” management. They're all the same!







I get it Frank. For you and others here the problem isn't the good, hardworking people, but the executives and management. Clearly you are part of the finger-pointing crowd; an action that you seem to be reprimanding Nelson for (look up “hypocrisy” in the dictionary if needed).



Frankly, Frank, I fear that "it's not us; it's them!" attitude may very well be a much bigger problem than globalization and is what’s holding the "average American" back.



TJR