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Firstr off, I want to say sorry to Nelson before I say this. Sorry, it is not said to be offensive or anything. It is the way I see your attitude with other career Military guys.



Frank, Nelson is a career military guy. He has forgotten what it is like in the "real world".





Tom
 
I totally understand Caymen. I see people (and politicos) who are out of touch with reality every day. Im just waitin' on the world to change. Stay strong and maybe the workin man will get his one day. Believe you me, we are overdue.
 
Well that's the issue now, isn't it!



All these versions of everyone's "real world" are colliding.



The workers of America want their real world the way it's always been. Managers and executives have a live the real world created by Wall St that has their company only as good as its last quarters results. As for the rest of us, well, our "real worlds" have gotten so much larger because now we are influenced by what goes on in China and India.



Yep! This is a "real world" problem.



TJR
 
The real world includes other countries. Having lived in four of them the past ten years and visiting many more, I know we are already behind England and South Korea. We are ahead of Turkey, Poland and Czech Republic, but those economies are growing at a much faster pace than ours. China and India are also moving up fast. At one time we had no peers, now we are being overtaken by much smaller countries. I am not happy about it, but we have stopped innovating. Part of the reason is that we aren't graduating enough people in technology degrees, like engineering.
 
"Waiting On The World To Change"



Me and all my friends

We're all misunderstood

They say we stand for nothing and

There's no way we ever could



Now we see everything that's going wrong

With the world and those who lead it

We just feel like we don't have the means

To rise above and beat it



So we keep waiting

Waiting on the world to change

We keep on waiting

Waiting on the world to change



It's hard to beat the system

When we're standing at a distance

So we keep waiting

Waiting on the world to change



Now if we had the power

To bring our neighbors home from war

They would have never missed a Christmas

No more ribbons on their door

And when you trust your television

What you get is what you got

Cause when they own the information, oh

They can bend it all they want



That's why we're waiting

Waiting on the world to change

We keep on waiting

Waiting on the world to change



It's not that we don't care,

We just know that the fight ain't fair

So we keep on waiting

Waiting on the world to change



And we're still waiting

Waiting on the world to change

We keep on waiting waiting on the world to change

One day our generation

Is gonna rule the population

So we keep on waiting

Waiting on the world to change



We keep on waiting

Waiting on the world to change
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nelson, great points, you hit the nail on the head !

in my opinion that is the attitude of the majority of union employees.
 
Gary S. makes a great point without realizing it. He slapped Nelson on the back for a point on "the working man" and automatically assumes that it is Union employees that are being refered to. Great job Gary. We need the rest of the country to realize, like you do, that the workin man IS a UNION man.
 
Frank,



You and I are going to get along very well. Gary is a good guy, just a little slow. He is fortunate to work for a good employer and thinks all employers are like that. You and I have been on both sides. I have worked for good non-union employers and I have worked for scumbags. Frankly I am tired of it. I am tired of the brown nosers and whiners that get the raises while I busted my butt to do a good job and did not even get an "attaboy".



I work as a union boilermaker for a good company. Not a great company, but good. I like knowing what I can do and can't do. I really like knowing that the rules will not change depending if the boss got some the night before or if some jerk cut him off on the way to work and we all are going to pay for it.



Nelson....



There is a difference between working for Uncle Sam and working for some corporation. I can only refer to 4 "career military" guys I worked with that came out of the military knowing everything, and then realizing they really did not know as much as they thought they did. They would bite you in the back to get special treatment. When they realized the treatment wasn't that special and they got the shaft like the rest of us, they started to sound like the rest of us.



It was NEVER meant as an insult, but working for the government (military) and working in the private sector is as opposite as day and night. In the military, you are treated fairly on your merit. It doesn't always work that way. The hardest working guy does not always make the most money and he does not always get the promotions. Spending time under the bosses desk will get you further than hard work ever will.





Tom
 
Like Tom, I have worked for good non-union companies (but they are very rare). I have also worked for bad non-union companies, and I have also worked for union companies.



The union companies generally seemed like their management EARNED the right to have a union in the place, because they treated their employees like crap.



I've worked with unions that were way more professional and good than the management they worked with. I have friends both union and non-union. I am always impressed by the professionalism of the union employees. All next week I will have the pleasure of working alongside the Teamsters in Kansas City. Those guys are extremely professional, hard-working, and very skilled. They are the best at what they do, and I would say I have never seen non-union employees work as good as they do. I have nothing but respect for them. I also know they are treated like crap from their companies.



I've also worked for government, and there are good government agencies and crappy government agencies.



Folks usually get what they deserve in the long run. Sometimes it just takes way too long.
 
We need the rest of the country to realize, like you do, that the workin man IS a UNION man.
Click to expand...



I'm sorry, THAT IS FLAT OUT BS. There are plenty of "Working Men" who are in an out of the unions. I resent the implication that if you are not in a union, you don't work (and that is what you are implying). There are plenty of lazy pieces of crap that are both in an out of the union too. I hear many people saying that managers (or white collar workers, or whatever) have an elitist attitude. There are plent of Union (or blue collar, or whatever) workers who think their you know what don't stink too.



I've worked both kinds of jobs. I put myself through college working on the grounds crew of a golf course and in the maintenence department at a factory. Now I'm an engineer. There are good workers and bad workers everywhere. I don't care if you are in a union or not, if you work hard and actually care about your job, I'll respect you. If you sit on your butt and whine and moan, I won't. Bottom line.



Rocks
 
MTURocks...don't get all worked up.



It's that "us vs. them", "chest beating" attitude raising its ugly head again...it will pass.



Anyone that has worked several jobs, in several industries, for several companies, and has worked union and non-union jobs realizes that there is good and bad, skilled and incompetent, hard working and lazy, professional and unprofessional in most all industries and companies regardless union or not.



Generalization is the hobgoblin of little minds.



TJR
 
I was just trying to drive home a point to Gary S. I do know there are working men who arent in a Union.



I will say this and you cannot refute it. There have been NO structures, or buildings of ANY significance that have been built in this country without UNION labor. They have the skills and the wherewithall to do thier jobs in a CRAFTSMANLIKE manner. Sure it may take longer and cost more. But you dont want it to fall apart after a week do you??? Case closed. Work UNION live BETTER.
 
frank, imo , most union workes are in it for themselves and are partially responsible for the decline of major industries here. your statement " work union live better ", i am a non union employee and live well. being a union member has nothing to do with how someone lives
 
Frank says:
I will say this and you cannot refute it. There have been NO structures, or buildings of ANY significance that have been built in this country without UNION labor.
Click to expand...



Yeah, you're probably right...that's hard to refute. It doesn't necessarily mean anything, but is hard to refute.



Frank also said:

They have the skills and the wherewithall to do thier jobs in a CRAFTSMANLIKE manner. Sure it may take longer and cost more. But you dont want it to fall apart after a week do you??? Case closed. Work UNION live BETTER.
Click to expand...



Don't get me started on all the under-construction building collapses, post-construction bridge collapses, etc. They happen, and on union jobs. Not saying that they are the fault of unions emps, just saying union emps alone don't make things NOT FALL DOWN.



I wonder if it was a union employee that smeared the seam sealant under the trunk lid of my Ford Focus? If so, they should get a non-union, ex-Toyota employee to do the job because what I have looks like my 6yo daughter does when finger painting.



P.S. I kinda think the Brooklyn Bridge was built without union employees. I could be wrong. If I am right, I suspect most would consider that a structure of significance.



That fact that few if any structures of significance today are built non-union really only proves the power of unions and isn't necessarily any indication of the quality of the structures put up.



TJR
 
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tom, thanks for the compliment " good guy, but just a little slow " :eek:

yes i happen to work for a good employer, but NO i don't think all employers are like that.

in my years of prior employment:

10 years with another clinical lab - loved it, treated well. company was sold. so i moved on without crying about it.

9 years with a major air courier service - loved it, treated well. right out of high school, advanced to management. resigned when i transfered back to n.y. ( was still young looking for a change )

it's all about how hard you work and what you put into it. i always put in 110%. if i didn't like something about my job that was enough for me to move on, so be it, i move on.

no tears, no complaining, no finger pointing !

call me " a little slow " , but i beleive i have alot to be proud of ;)
 
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Listen Gary S. Im trying to tell you facts. If you really work a blue collar job, NON UNION, and have good wages, and HEALTHCARE.. then you are the rarest of the rare. Rarer than lets say: weapons of mass destruction. Or better yet, a terrorist link to Iraq. Something tells me that you are in Management, or in a position where you have to be anti- Union to make your "Good living"



The decline of major manufacturing is purely responsible due to markets, globalization and POOR MANAGEMENT decisions. Any time a company has a hard time, they always blame it on the workers. They always take from the pension, health, and wages of the Union working men and RETIREES! The term "Legacy costs" is a good one. Some dummass lawyer came up with that one, to make retirees pension packages sound evil. It is SOLEY because of the years and years of hard labor (by UNION men) in poor conditions that these "great" companies BECAME fortune 500 companies. Wake up Gary S. The labor costs and the payrolls of these "great companies" are a FRACTION of thier operating costs. They just serve a two fold purpose to attack them, because the big boys greed and need to keep thier power.



I see no difference in Anti-Union minded people and the ZEALOTS that say "if you are anti-War, then you are against the troops". Or better yet... "anti- American". The staunch Union man is actually conservative in many ways. More conservative than the pretenders in Washington now. A Union man wants to keep his benefits. He wants a keep his fair wages. He wants to be able to work in a safe environment without the fear of being fired for no reason. Only to be replaced by the bosses nephew.

There is no reason to ever give any of that up.



Union men normally get paid a bit more than a Non- Union man, doing the same work sure. Would you not take the wage hike?? Its simple economics. You, having the typical non- union republican stance, have probably spewed the phrases.."capitalism" and "free-market". Well any dummy would surely work for more money and actual healthcare if given a chance. A man CAPITALIZES on an opportunity and takes the Union job. If Unions are smart enough to CONSERVE thier fair wage and benefit packages, then it can only be looked upon by people of any intellect, as a GOOD THING.



Stop bashing the Union man Gary. Sure many years ago there were some corruption issues with certain Unions. But that is miniscule compared to big business and the current office holders chicanery. I know without a doubt that I am right, and I will stand by anything I say for the lifetime of this website. Sorry it has to be so passionate, but thats the only way to get anything as a UNION man. You have to fight for your share every step of the way. If you do not, then there wont be a middle class. Too bad that our leaders are more concerned with thier "base" than thier country. Work UNION...live BETTER Gary S. Our standard of living depends on it.





 
:lol::lol: Funny stuff.



Let's see - Civil Service and vast majority of Gov't workers are union - the pro union folks here are the same ones that do most of the complaining about the gov't. hhhmmm. It's called a mirror where I come from.



I totally understand Caymen. I see people (and politicos) who are out of touch with reality every day. Im just waitin' on the world to change. Stay strong and maybe the workin man will get his one day. Believe you me, we are overdue.
Click to expand...



Without folks like Nelson that change would happen pretty damn quick. I have yet to see a union man defend anything except his union. It's the folks that travel overseas, that defend your right to unionize (WHAT!!! The union gives me that right) that are the most in touch - because they see it and deal with it everyday.



I saw it another post but didn't comment because I don't like to get personal. But, one of the biggest differences between union, management, blue collar, white collar, getting laid off or being retained or whatever your gripe is is knowing the difference between "foremen" and "formans".



the workin man IS a UNION man.
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So is the guy sat in the bar - and you can't fire him :lol:
 
gary,



You are aware, that was a joke?





Tom
Click to expand...





Actually with out smilies, or seeing some ones body language, Just typing something is hard to comprehend and take it the way the author expects you to..



Todd Z
 

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