Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot............................

[TrainTrac]

gwac,



When Mud Flap said:

I mean, it seems to me you have come to this board just to argue a few points that are just way off topic from each other. Have you ever engaged in a conversation with anyone? If so, did you randomly shift the topic just to start another debate?

I believe he was referring to you. I re-read this thread and every time someone came up with a solid rebuttal and credible facts to counter and discredit your claims and viewpoints, instead of responding in an intelligent manner with more information to support your stance, you changed the subject.

 

[Josh Langel]

Thank you, TrainTrac. You hit the nail on the head.

 

[Rich Stern]

Last warning on the personal attacks. Stop now or never be heard here again.

By the way I live in a country where one does not need a gun to protect themselves....

gwac, your points are laced with indefensible positons, like the one above. Are you suggesting that no person in Canada has ever been greviously harmed for lack of a gun available for the prupose of self-defense?



I hope not, because there are many documented cases in Canada where a gun was used successfully in self-defense, and in other cases, where unarmed victims of violent crime were harmed and could not be protected by agents of the government.

 

[2]

I hope not, because there are many documented cases in Canada where a gun was used successfully in self-defense, and in other cases, where unarmed victims of violent crime were harmed and could not be protected by agents of the government.

Actually, you are not even allowed to protect yourself with a gun here, it happens every so many years here that someone shoots someone in their store that is attempting to rob them. The store owner then gets charged. It would be the same if someone broke into my house and I shot them, I would be getting hauled off to jail.

 

[Greg A]

Rich



Are you trying to say the low crime rate in canada is not because of our gun controls and

that if we went out and bought 35 million guns and gave one to everyone that

there would be no crime.



I suggest different and crime would surge to stats like that of the United States....

 

[Greg A]

Rich



3 time more murders in the US per capita than Canada, what do you attribute that to



http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_percap



Far less robberies per capita



http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rob_percap

 

[Greg A]

Rich



Also total crimes





http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_percap

 

[Greg A]

Canada does have more rapes





http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_percap

 

[Josh Langel]

The objective is???



Take the rights away due to crime?



What are we trying to accomplish here? I don't fall for the government telling me that I have to give up my rights because a percentage of terrible people want to use them in the wrong way. Am I the only one that can see this as just a way to cheat and control the people. Why if we can't control them, let's take their rights away... soon we would be puppets of the government, instead of the government being our puppets.



And to say that you don't need protection "where you come from" is a laugh! I wouldn't care what statistics said, I will NOT lay my life down and become vulnerable because the numbers say it's okay.



Wait till the shift that is to come (Utopia is an illusion), then I think people will start wanting to defend themselves.



I can't wait.

 

[Josh Langel]

Oh, and if you think murder is more of a crime than rape, then you're so wrong.



(I say this because you claim that Canadians don't need protection)



What do you think rape is? Something that "just happens?"



With protection, rape would decrease ... but then again, "murder" must be that much more worse ... hell with the person that has to live with the fact they were raped ... must feel great to condone gun control while people are being raped... thats a great way to see it. What are the canadians doing to help stop rape? Ignoring it or giving people sticks to fight back with?



I don't get it.

 

[Greg A]

Mud



Nobody is asking you to lay down your gun, all I am saying is having one does not

lower crime.





Stats can results



http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/briefs/b29/b29_e.shtml



there are more break an enters and car thefts in Canada per capital, there

are less violent crimes in canada







COMPARING CRIME RATES







Table 1 shows the number of police reported incidents in 2001 for the five comparable offences used in this study. In this table, we are looking at the absolute numbers of each type of offence that has been reported to the police in the latest reporting year. We see that the United States has of course by far the largest absolute number of crime incidents of any type. This is consistent with its much larger population (285 million Americans as compared to nearly 53 million citizens of England & Wales and only 31 million Canadians). All other things being equal, we expect that countries with larger populations would have larger volumes of crime.



Table 1: Number of Reported Crime Incidents - 2001



Country

Canada

United States

England & Wales1



National Population

31,110,600

284,796,887

52,939,000



Actual crimes reported or known to police



Homicide

551

15,980

765



Robbery

27,414

422,921

84,277



Aggravated Assault 2

56,591

907,219

231,735



Break & Enter / Burglary

285,512

2,109,767

906,468



Motor Vehicle Theft

170,213

1,226,457

338,796



1 The crime data for England & Wales are for the year 2000.

2 Includes attempted murder.





Comparing overall crime rates amongst the three countries, Canada appears to be doing the best overall job of controlling crime, especially violent crime, where rates across the board are amongst the lowest. Canada has not done relatively as well with property crime, where rates are a bit higher than in the United States but are still lower than those of England & Wales.



Table 2: Crime Incidents per 100,000 of the Population - 2001



Country

Canada

United States

England & Wales1



National Population

31,110,600

284,796,887

52,939,000



Actual Crimes per 100,000 of the population

Canada

United states

Uk



Homicide

1.8

5.6

1.4



Robbery

88

148

159



Aggravated Assault 2

182

319

438



Break & Enter / Burglary

908

741

1,712



Motor Vehicle Theft

547

431

640



1 The crime data for England & Wales are for the year 2000.

2 Includes attempted murder.

 

[Greg A]

Mud I never said Canadians do not need protecting, we need more police and they

should have guns. We have less police which is disgusting. We also send

our criminals to jail for less time than americans, which is stupid. We should

also put our murder`s to dealth (as long as we are 100% sure they are resonsible)



Canada current rate of 188 officers per 100,000 population is about 20% lower than in the United States and Australia, and about 25% lower than in England and Wales.





I do not think we need to arm the average citizen in Canada, I think we need tougher

juvenile justice in Canada and tougher sentences. In Canada you cannot show

an under 18 year old in the media, they are given slaps on the wrists for their crimes. It

is a joke..

 

[Josh Langel]

Okay, so you can cut and paste.



Let me get things straight.



Since crime would "increase" (what kind of crime? Robbery? Homicide?) then that is a clear reason why you shouldn't PROTECT yourself? When do you begin to protect yourself? After it's too late?



Also --- what stops a criminal from illegally using a gun? It's very easy to drive a car without a license, so should all drivers stop since there are a large number that are doing it illegally and do have accidents that kill people? Only the good follow the laws, so why would a criminal stop because it's said to be wrong? They will still do it. Yes, a law may make it harder, but in the end... the result hurts the innocent, not the criminal.



My point is this: Having the mindset that it's better to limit your protection/right to see numbers in crime DECREASE (not go away) is better than having the means to stop a crime and NOT become a statistic.

 

[Josh Langel]

I also hope that the police are not corrupt, because then it's really bad.



I say this because America has a lot of crooked cops (some are good, some are terrible). Look at the Louisiana catastrophe... it was insane and some of the cops fled...



So when there are no more cops, where do you go?



(Assuming that Canada could have a catastrophe)

 

[Greg A]

Mud



Nothing stops a criminal from using a gun, if there were more guns in Canada, crimminal

would have more access and I think there would be more crimes.



The stats show that crime in general in less in Canada and that IMHO is attributed to

our guns laws, its not because of anything else because we are very weak at

punishing our criminals...

 

[Greg A]

Not very much corrupton in the police, they are very well paid....But not paid

enough for putting their lives on the line...

 

[TrainTrac]

Canada does have more rapes

How many crimes in Canada involved guns? I would think that it would be 0 because they're not legal to own, right?



It's a fact that crime rates in America are lower in states and localities where law-abiding citizens are able to legally own a gun. They're even lower in areas where CCW is legal. When you were researching your statistics about higher murder, and robbery rates in the U.S., did they state how many involved guns? You can't just put forth a blanket statistic as a justification for banning guns without showing how many involved guns. And of those that did involve guns, did the criminal legally obtain and own said firearm? I would be willing to be that the answer to that in 99.9% of the cases would be NO. So do you honestly believe that if guns were banned in the U.S. that gun-related crime rates would diminish? Nope, because criminals are still going to obtain them, by any means available.



How about finding a statistic on how many crimes were prevented or stopped by a law-abiding citizen legally carrying a gun? You don't want to look that up, because it doesn't support your view.



Statistics show that in states with more stringent gun ownership laws, and in localities with more stringinent laws or that have banned guns altogether; crime rates have risen. I don't have them readily at hand, but I can find them, or I'm sure that someone else will post them here.



And you're right, murder and robbery per capita rates are higher in the U.S. The key words in the statistic you posted were "per capita". So of course the rates are higher, because we have more people in the U.S. Duh!:wacko:



Perhaps if Canadians were allowed to own a firearm, and obtain a Concealed Carry permit, the rape statistics would drop...:huh:

 

[Greg A]

Mud



I do think the Americans could go backwards and try to eliminate guns in the

United States, there are too many in the hands of criminals and they are not going to

give them up....

 

[Greg A]

Train



Those are murders per capital by any means

 

[Josh Langel]

Right.



Do you think that any of the crimes in Canada could have been prevented with guns?



I mean, it just boggles my mind that people feel that it's okay to do away with a means of protection when there is still crime. There is still crime. There are still victims.



Now if you said that there was zero crime, then I would say you're okay... but with the possibility of getting mugged, robbed, raped, killed is still there... so someone taking away my right to handle a gun is crazy.



I guess I just look at it as if I am in a situation (ie: my house in bed) where I cannot call the cops (which don't arrive until minutes later, and a minute could kill you) and then I have to defend myself. I am a little person, so "fighting" would just be insane and slinging a pillow/stick at a knife holding lunatic would most likely end in the criminals favor. Now add all that with a wife and a child (when the times come for me to have a family)... I will not hesitate to shoot a criminal who is threatening my family's life. I hope you would want the best protection for your family too.