Huckabee

[Frank screwyourednecks]

"Deer Hunting With Jesus" is a real book TJR... I wasnt trying to portray you as uninformed. Just putting a short "suggested" read-list for you. I know you havent read either of these so...



I will say that these two books (both bestsellers) aren't propaganda either. Have a look TJR. Maybe it will open your mind a little!

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Frank,



You will find that one sure way to TICK me off is to claim to KNOW something about me when there is absolutely NO WAY to actually know it.



You say you know that I haven't read the books you referred to, but you have actually no way of knowing what I have and haven't read. So, please, check yourself carefully when stating that you KNOW things about me. Thanks.



Likewise, saying that these books will "open my mind" is insulting. My mind isn't closed...quite the contrary.



I'd have been more willing to look into books like those mentioned if someone else suggested them. As I said, you have and continue to flip the bozo switch on yourself, in my book.



I've known about "Deer Hunting with Jesus" for some time now, though I haven't read it. I have read other books and papers on class warfare, socio-economics, the fall of the middle class (etc); all of which are interersting. Still, I'm less interested in a satirical view on the subject than I am on getting past the humorous examination and to the meat of the matter. The meat to me are these questions:



- WHY do we as people in the same country see things so differently?



- Why do we have such a polarization in this country, and HOW do we (or even SHOULD WE) get past it?



Books like those you mention seem to be a cautionary commentary on the dynamics at play, but fail to examine the bigger questions. Is class warefare bad? Is the polarization within our populace hurting us, irreparably?



There is something to be said for "the middle", IMHO. The nice thing about the middle is when there you can see both sides. The bad thing about being on the extreme is that you can't see the other side.



Frank, you come off as being an extremist.



TJR

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

So are you gonna read em ?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Frank,



Those books continue to be not that high on my "must read" list... and whether right or wrong, they have been pushed down a little further by your championing of them.



Do you understand my point yet?



I guess not.



I suspect you just see me as close-minded and don't instead see the simple fact that because of the way you present your arguments, your messages, your opinions, you force people to pretty much turn you off; to tune you out. I hope you can see that and change your tone so that more people will listen to you.



I'm done troll feeding for today.



TJR

 

[user 64972]

the simple fact that because of the way you present your arguments, your messages, your opinions, you force people to pretty much turn you off; to tune you out

Well put TJR!



'07 ST

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

My point is that in my opinion YOU DO object to others religious beliefs by the simple fact that you say that you object to those that you feel force their beliefs on others.

You are taking my statement out of context. I have repeatedly said that I DO NOT object to anyone's personal religious beliefs. My whole point is that someone running for political office should not wear his/her religion on their sleeve, or make political decisions based on any specific religious doctrine. They should not make their religious beliefs be used in any part of their campaign, and if elected they cannot allow religious beliefs or obigations to interfere with their political duties.



Politicians should perform their public duties with a strong moral conviction, but a religiously neutral point of view.



I said Huckabee was a nice fellow, and I have no problem with his religious beliefs. However when he ran for President back in 2008, his strong religious beliefs came to center stage numerous times. I'm not sure if he wanted his religious beliefs to become a focal point, or whether the media played up the the religious angle, but he did not seem to object. Mtt Romney down played his Morman religion and appeared that he did not want his religion to be an issue.



My only question abotu Huckabee is, Can he hold the office of President without being influenced by his religious beliefs? I think that would be hard for most Evangelical Christians to do...but certainly not impossible. I'm sure he would probably do a good job as President, I'm just not 100% convinced that he could remain religion neutral.



That is my opinion of "Separation of church and state".



...Rich

 

[TrainTrac]

As per usual, Frank fails to provide specifics to support his rhetorical, broad-sweeping claims.



I asked him to provide specific quotes by Gov. Huckabee or other specific examples, such as writings by him, etc. that substantiate the claim that Gov. Huckabee's "top priority in public service is to bring the masses closer to Jesus through legislation", or "trying to convert everyone". And as usual, the only reply I received was... crickets.



Mike Huckabee has already served as Governor of Arkansas. Did he sign any legislation into law in that state designed to "bring the masses closer to Jesus"? Did he, in his official capacity as Governor, "try to convert everyone" in the state of Arkansas? I'm pretty confident the answer to both of those questions is NO.



So why does he make Frank and others uncomfortable as a Presidential candidate? If he didn't do those things as Governor, what makes you think he'd attempt to do so as President? Most every President in history has been a person of faith, and uses their religion to some capacity as a foundation and guide for living their life and making decisions, much like most Americans. Sure, Huckabee might be a little more vocal about his faith because he's also an ordained minister, but he isn't going to turn the US into a Baptist theocracy if elected. Jimmy Carter is a born-again Christian/Southern Baptist as well, and also a deacon in his church, but the liberals and Democrats didn't seem to have a problem with him as President.



And what about the icons/"heroes" of the Democrat party, the Kennedy boys? They were Irish-Catholic (at least by affiliation-in practice they were womanizing heathens!) and liberals and Democrats didn't raise a stink about their religion.



Finally, I would submit that this whole discussion is moot anyway, especially when one considers that the words "separation of church and state" are not found anywhere in First Amendment or elsewhere in the Constitution. It states that

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

It says nothing about the President. So again, why all the hullabaloo about Mike Huckabee as a Presidential candidate?

 

[H D]

The Bible is the number one selling Book of all time and since this is a qualifying characteristic, it is a definite must read.



Sarah Palin also has a best seller.:cheeky:

 

[Willie Anglin]

Hey guys, I have went at with lots of people like Frank on the net and quite Frankly you are wasting cyber space agruing with him and others who in their mind believe Christians need to stay in the church and keep their mouths shut about government of any kind while they say nothing about all types of people in the government spouting off all kinds of insanity. No one and I mean no one can keep their beliefs under raps to the point of it not affecting their decision making process whether they are Christians, devil worshippers, muslims, hindus or what ever, but Christians are the only ones who should remain silent. Christians by and large started this government of freedom of worship in the first place and now certain people are saying Christians are the biggest threat to our freedoms. We Christians are not trying to take away everybody elses freedoms, just trying to keep our own. Don't give me that chicken little junk, one example here in NC in Raleigh a church has fought a lawsuit for years for them just to be able to fly the Christian flag on their property all the while it is ok to fly a flag of a foreign country above or even without the USA flag with it. Also much legislation has tried to be introduced into law that would keep people from wearing Christian symbols in the work place because someone might be offended. But again you are wasting time. I pray for people to see light.



II Cor 4

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Bo Loo]

Something to consider about Huckabee

 

[Les]

Huckabee's top priority IS evangelism. You can NOT dispute it. As are a lot of Republican politicians.

Frank, as usual, is too busy spewing his extremist opinion to produce any facts.







Deer Hunting with Jesus by Joe Bageant

As you may have guessed, despite some perfectly respectable facts and figures, Bageant is essentially a comic writer.



http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/books/reviews/5152778.html

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Richard L said:

My whole point is that someone running for political office should not wear his/her religion on their sleeve, or make political decisions based on any specific religious doctrine. They should not make their religious beliefs be used in any part of their campaign, and if elected they cannot allow religious beliefs or obigations to interfere with their political duties.

Okay, I will bite and play devil's advocate here (no pun intended), and ask the following question about what you have just said:



Why not?



Why can't a political figure be open about his or her religion, include it and not hide it during the campaign, and draw on it when serving?



I will say that I don't see how a religious person with religious beliefs can ever, really, truly divorce that side of their person and their belief system from the day-to-day life and therefore from their political service. Likewise, I don't see why one should hide that part of their makeup while campaigning.



Most politicians that serve have to swear to some oath. Many of which swear that oath on a Bible (funny...right?). As long as they uphold their oath they can use (or not use) their religious beliefs in whatever way they deem fit, IMHO.



Now, if I don't agree with someone's religious beliefs and I think those beliefs may make them the kind of politician I don't want serving me, well then, I won't vote for them.



I guess what I am saying asking is: What is the harm?



And, likewise, what I am saying is that: Your desire seems noble, but unenforceable and unrealistic, lest we only vote in athiests.



TJR

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

I will say that I don't see how a religious person with religious beliefs can ever, really, truly divorce that side of their person and their belief system from the day-to-day life and therefore from their political service

You answered your own question. I don't expect any religious or spiritual person to divorce themselves from their religious or spiritual beliefs... But they should not let any specific religious doctrine enter into their decisions as a politician, nor discriminate against any particular religious group, ie: Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.



I also think you are confusing Religious Beliefs, which I have no problem with, and the power to force a religious belief or doctrine onto others, which I do object to.



An Evangelical Christian can express their beliefs to their friends, neighbors, and family and they can also overtly try to convince others to convert to Christianity (that is freedom of speach). However when a person is in a political position or some other supervisory position of power, I feel it is improper to force your religious beliefs on your subordinates. In the workplace that would legally define harrassment, and discriminitory...much like sexual harrassment. If you go to church, you expect a religious sermon, however you do not expect that at work.



Somebody preaching religion on the street corner does not bother me. I am free to listen or walk away, but it is very different if a politician starts legislating how the city, state or federal government will be run or control it's citizens based on some religious ideology....Which is how many countries in the Middle East operate...Women are forced to wear Burka's, Women are not allowed to go to school, men are not allowed to shave, everyone is forced to pray 5 times a day, and people are arrested and killed for teaching any other religion accept Islam.



Like I said much earlier, too many men wield religion like a sword.



...Rich

 

[TrainTrac]

RichardL said:



You answered your own question. I don't expect any religious or spiritual person to divorce themselves from their religious or spiritual beliefs... But they should not let any specific religious doctrine enter into their decisions as a politician, nor discriminate against any particular religious group, ie: Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.



I also think you are confusing Religious Beliefs, which I have no problem with, and the power to force a religious belief or doctrine onto others, which I do object to.



An Evangelical Christian can express their beliefs to their friends, neighbors, and family and they can also overtly try to convince others to convert to Christianity (that is freedom of speach). However when a person is in a political position or some other supervisory position of power, I feel it is improper to force your religious beliefs on your subordinates.

So I'll ask the question again: Is there any documented evidence that, in his official capacity as Governor of Arkansas, Mike Huckabee attempted to force his beliefs on either his subordinates or constituents? Again, I'm pretty sure the answer to that question is no.



So what makes anyone think he would do so were he to be elected President?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

TrainTrac asks good questions. Again, I think all we have to fear here is fear itself.



TJR

 

[Mark K 2]

Ummm... Yep. He's warped.



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[Thomas Rogers]

Mark k,



If he is warped and most see that then he will be relegated to serving gov of some backwards-ass state...problem solved.



Btw, his comments that surfaced today about Obama and his time in Kenya possibly shaping his view of the Brits don't really bother me. Would be nice if all his facts were straight, but to assume that Obamas view of the Brits is different due to his upbringing than say yours, mine, or even past presidents, to me, sounds like a relatively safe assumption.



I'd rather have politicians that speak their mind, rather than only speak in calculated political sound bytes. If they all did that wouldn't it be great? It would make it so much easier to know who to vote for.



TJR

 

[Bill V]

Thought this might be germaine to the conversation...

 

[Les]

Ummm... Yep. He's warped.

Mark, doesn't make him warped, maybe misinformed. Even Obama has made these types of mistakes and mis-stated where he actually was.



Not defending him, don't consider him my first choice, or maybe any choice, but we can't do much worse than we are doing right now.

 

[Richard L]

TJR, & TrainTrac,



I do not have documented evidence that Huckabee has said or done anything as a governor that would imply that he tried to force his religious beliefs on anyone....But I don't need any evidence for my opinion of him, and that's all it is is my opinion. I said he is probably a great guy, but I don't live in Arkansas I live in Texas, so I don't have any opinion of him as governor, and frankly, I don't really care what he does as governor there.



When he ran for President in 2008 his religion came to the forefront of his campaign, and that was a signal that his religious beliefs COULD become an issue if he as President...so in my OPINION I did not think he was a viable candidate and would not vote for him,...so I didn't.



I just don't want anyone in the office of President who might make an executive decision based soley on his belief in some religious prophecy, or doctrine. In my opinion that rules out Rev. Falwell, Rev Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Rev. Jesse Jackson, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, and many others who came to fame or infamy through various religious ideologies.



Again, that's just my opinion and has been for many years... You may be of a different opinion, and that's find. So you are free to vote for any candidate you care to. If you feel so strongly that Huckabee is that wonderful, start your own Huckabee religion and worship him as your Messiah.



It would appear that others did not see Huckabee as a viable candidate for President since he dropped out of the race during the primaries....but that usually is a money issue. If you don't get enough votes, you don't get enough money.



...Rich