Intresting Obama/binladen article

[Les]

So unless you were present and have undeniable proof that either Obama or Panetta are lying, and clear motive for lying, your point is pointless.

Rich, you missed the point so let me say it another way.

...if you lie you run the risk of contradictions and changing stories that will expose your lies.

I didn't accuse anyone of lying, that was your "point-less point". If they all told the truth to start with, there wouldn't be any need to revise what was previously said, or as you put it, not have total recall. Latency in responses and the usual spin that goes with it are indications the truth has not been expressed at some level, or at all.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Redfish,



How many holes? What is ETA to strike? How far away is the golf course?



It is easy for one person to pass judgment in a blanket fashion given what they feel is gross misconduct/deriliction (sp?) of duty. But again, I rarely ever see things so black/white.





Some questions for you:



Are you a golfer?



Do you recognize the potential benefits of golfing for someone with a stressful job?



Would hitting the treadmill or the jogging trail been permissable for you?



I am not a golfer, but as someone who has recently changed his lifestyle to become and stay fit, I can say that it is 100% important for anyone with a stressful job to make sure that they prioritize their day in such a way that they get physical activity in...at least 5 or 6 days a week. Period!



Also, I got no indication that there was any impact due to BHO hitting the links. We can play "what if" all day long, but that is a game I typically don't play. I just don't. Yes, I prepare for bad things, and yes, it is good to be available in case of emergency.



I think people are going out of their way to find things to be critical of.



Just like when Bush read "My Pet Goat" for another 8 minutes (or whatever). Who gives a crap. There was nothing the man could have done. Just as if the S!@# hit the fan, there would be really nothing BHO could have done, on or off the golf course.



TJR

 

[TrainTrac]

Would you have gone to play golf if you had ordered a raid and the troops were in the air?



Anyone?

Good question. For those that don't think it's a big deal, let's put it into a little perspective: June 6, 1944. General Dwight D. Eisenhower (an avid golfer serving in an extremely stressful job, gives the order to begin the D-Day invasion and then promptly hits the links for a round of golf.



Would this be OK?

How many holes? What is ETA to strike? How far away is the golf course?

All three questions are irrelevant.

Just like when Bush read "My Pet Goat" for another 8 minutes (or whatever).

Again, irrelevant. Two entirely different situations. President Bush was sitting in a classroom of seven-year old children when he received the news of the 9/11 attacks. He did the right thing by finishing his reading of the story. His intention was to not alarm the kids. However it appears that they still knew something was up. Kids are far more perceptive than adults give them credit for being. See this article: <A HREF="http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2069327-1,00.html">The Interrupted Reading: The Kids with George W. Bush on 9/11</A>



It's called LEADERSHIP, plain and simple. Something this president knows very little about because he had absolutely ZERO leadership experience prior to being elected to the office of POTUS. His @$$ should've been down in the Situation Room from the moment the order was given to go ahead with the mission.

 

[Les]

His @$$ should've been down in the Situation Room from the moment the order was given to go ahead with the mission.

Or at the very least, found a quiet place and said a prayer.

 

[Richard L]

Les

I didn't accuse anyone of lying, that was your "point-less point".

But you previously said:

It also shows if you just tell the truth, all the lying and covering-up wouldn't get in the way.

That to me implies that you think they were lying. So what is your point about telling the truth if you did not feel they were lying....That's why I said your point was pointless



TrainTrac,

General Eisenhower did not play golf, but he was the Supreme Allied Commander during WWII. A better question would be to ask what was President Roosevelt doing on the morning of D-Day?? Probably not playing golf since he was crippled with polio...but I think you see my point, that there is a big difference between the Commander of the troops and the Commander in Chief who is a half a world away...



Obama played golf the morning hours before the raid, since the raid did not occur until that evening (Eastern Time).



You are all acting like Obama did not care what happened because he went an played golf??



Perhaps he made prior arrangements to play golf and wanted everything to appear normal. Had he cancelled his golf game, that may have tipped the press or someone that something was going on?? He only went to the secret strategy room with the military and intelligence advisors when the raid was about to begin and stayed to monitor everything until it was successfully completed which was hours after he played golf.



I bet he probably even ate lunch and dinner and took a dump that day, but some of you will find something sinister in that too.



...Rich

 

[Robert Thomas]

He played 9 holes. Mission was underway, Two hours to strike when he arrived back. Andrews AF Base 20 to 30 min (Guess)



Never passed judgment. Never looked at things as Black or White.



Yes, for 20 years.



No. Golfing is additional stress (for me), not relief from stress.



Never said golfing wasn't permissible, same for the treadmill or jogging a trail.



Everyone should strive for a much recreation and fun that they can cram in a day. Sometimes events prohibit it.



Never said that the golf outing was a impact. Just asked the question "Would you have gone to play golf if you had ordered a raid and the troops were in the air?"



Only played "what if" once and it had nothing to do with impact.



Never said anything critical of the outing, just found it a concern as it related to the article and the statements.



Back to Bush, the Tea Party, and Donald Trump



"Nothing BHO could have done" Guess he should have played the back 9.



Hope this helps you formulate an answer.



Would I have gone to play Golf. No, I wouldn't even have gone fishing. I would not have slept for two days. Panetta would have found me sitting on his desk at 5AM Sunday morning. Not to supervise, but to know everything as quickly as possible. But that's just me.



As for the Bush thing. I would have been out the door before the adviser finished his statement.

 

[Bill V]

Redfish,

He played 9 holes. Mission was underway, Two hours to strike when he arrived back. Andrews AF Base 20 to 30 min (Guess)



Never passed judgment.

Huh? You also said,

The only real concern I have is the golf outing on the morning of the raid....This administration doesn't make this type of errors.

Your calling it an "error" is an opinion, not a statement of fact. And voicing such an opinion indicates that you have indeed passed judgment. Don't try to back out of it.

 

[TrainTrac]

General Eisenhower did not play golf, but he was the Supreme Allied Commander during WWII. A better question would be to ask what was President Roosevelt doing on the morning of D-Day?? Probably not playing golf since he was crippled with polio...but I think you see my point, that there is a big difference between the Commander of the troops and the Commander in Chief who is a half a world away...

I used the analogy of Ike & D-Day because it's a well-documented fact Ike liked to golf. And given the technology of the time, Ike was able to stay in real-time contact with the forces hitting the beach from his HQ in England. Not possible for FDR to have done that. So I think it was fair to compare Ike/D-day to Obama/OBL raid.



Also, as we all know, especially in the case of politicians, it's all about perception. And the perception/public image of a CiNC out on the golf course after ordering troops into harm's way on a mission to capture the world's most wanted terrorist/world's most dangerous man in my opinion demonstrated an extreme lack of leadership on the part of President Obama, and was a very, very poor decision by both he and his advisers/handlers. If he wanted to blow off a little steam/stress, he could've played basketball in the WH gym or something. Or better yet, he should've attended church that morning. If for no other reason than photo op of him at church could've been spun into President Obama "praying for the success of SEAL Team Six's mission and their safe return". That would've made for much better press playing golf and seeming completely detached from the situation.

 

[Robert Thomas]

Bill,



Sorry I guess I what I wrote wasn't plain enough. You left out part of the sentence in making this type of judgment. I wrote:



"The only real concern I have is the golf outing on the morning of the raid. The White House gave one story why it was cut short and Obama gave another. Why would he go play golf knowing that the raid was scheduled? Politically, had the raid had failed this would have been a big problem. This administration doesn't make this type of errors."



This is a concern about the believability of the article. Did he know the raid was on or did he find out while on the golf course. I don't know. Does it make a difference, no. He says he did. Panetta doesn't address it, and the article implies he didn't. Would you like to know?



I did not state that the President made an error by playing golf. I'm saying that advisor's would not have allowed this knowing that if the mission failed, the golf outing would have been a problem. I have also pointed out the problems with the article that don't ring true.



I have asked all concerned to read the article, read Panetta's interview, read the Presidents Interview and decide if you want to know more.



I have only asked a simple question: "Would you have gone to play golf if you had ordered a raid and the troops were in the air?"



Anyone?

 

[Richard L]

TrainTrac,

Your comparison/analogy is way off base when you compare President to a a military field commander and not President to President. I can assure you that none of the military commanders in the chain of command for that mission were not playing golf.



You speak of Leadership, but part of leadership is entrusting people to do the tasks they are experts in doing. Nobody is implying that Obama is a Military man nor that he even thinks he can plan such a mission. He said he wanted a ground attack on the compound, and that's exactly what he got. I also think it is perfectly normal for him to protect his political position as this has been done by other President's in the past.



It is very common for Presidents and CEO's to inform their executive staff what they want/wish and leave it up to them to get it done without informing him of the details just so he can claim that he did not know anything or had not been informed about the operation. Reagan did that in the diverting of funds to by guns for the Contras and Col. Oliver North was the fall guy.



I agree with your statement about perception, but I think a lot of people are letting their dislike of Obama color their perceptions or assumptions about him as if they were factual. People are reading things in the media or on these anti-Obama websites and assume it must be true because they found someone they can agree with about their dislike of Obama.



Redfish,

I don't think I need to respond to your last retort since Bill V did an excellent job of point out the fact that you are talking out both sides of your mouth.



He played 9 holes of golf, and had several hours to make in plenty of time to join his staff to monitor the raid. You keep saying that you don't object to him playing golf, but yet you insist on criticising him for doing so. So my question to you was, What was your point about mentioning that he played golf when you state that it was not an issue...just a pointless point !



...Rich

 

[Les]

You keep saying that you don't object to him playing golf, but yet you insist on criticising him for doing so.

Rich, that's not what he said, he simply asked a question.

I have only asked a simple question: "Would you have gone to play golf if you had ordered a raid and the troops were in the air?"



Anyone?

It's a simple question, not a judgement.

 

[Mark K 2]

Or better yet, he should've attended church that morning.

But that would require him to want to go to church. My mom's had plenty of serious surgeries in the past couple of years. Not once did I even think about going to church beforehand. I can pray just fine without making a public showing of it in a church.

 

[Robert Thomas]

Good job Rich.



You studied the material and although took great liberty with facts and figures you made your own judgment. All that I ever asked.



Wait, I did ask what you would have done. I withdraw the question.



I admit that my whole mission in this post is my hate of golf and anyone who plays it. I don't like a game that penalizes you a stroke for loosing a ball, but doesn't give you a stroke for finding one.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Les stated:

It's a simple question, not a judgement.

Correct. The question is simple. The answer would be where the judgement comes into play. The question is whether or not the commander in chief should have played golf while the mission was underway.



In hindsight, it didn't make a rats-fart of difference.



Had shit hit the fan, he would have been a phone call and minutes away.



I seriously don't see the problem, other than to some it might look bad.



But then again, I'm not the kind of guy that worries about appearances and doing things just to appease some.



TJR

 

[TrainTrac]

I agree with your statement about perception, but I think a lot of people are letting their dislike of Obama color their perceptions or assumptions about him as if they were factual. People are reading things in the media or on these anti-Obama websites and assume it must be true because they found someone they can agree with about their dislike of Obama.

Rich,



OK, so you disagree with my comparison of Ike/Obama. Here's a President-to-President comparison: Obama/OBL raid to GWB/9-11. What I quoted from you above could've also been said about how GWB reacted upon receiving report of the 9-11 attacks:

a lot of people are letting their dislike of Bush color their perceptions or assumptions about him as if they were factual. People are reading things in the media or on these anti-Bush websites and assume it must be true because they found someone they can agree with about their dislike of Bush.

You speak of Leadership, but part of leadership is entrusting people to do the tasks they are experts in doing. Nobody is implying that Obama is a Military man nor that he even thinks he can plan such a mission. He said he wanted a ground attack on the compound, and that's exactly what he got. I also think it is perfectly normal for him to protect his political position as this has been done by other President's in the past.



It is very common for Presidents and CEO's to inform their executive staff what they want/wish and leave it up to them to get it done without informing him of the details just so he can claim that he did not know anything or had not been informed about the operation. Reagan did that in the diverting of funds to by guns for the Contras and Col. Oliver North was the fall guy.

I fully understand all of this. Like you, I'm retired military, and totally get the concepts of sound leadership and delegation of authority, along compartmentalization and leaders being isolated from certain aspects of taskings/missions.



My main point was to illustrate the perception of Obama's leadership, or lack thereof., and the perception of him being detached from the situation by being seen out on the golf course. Imagine Obama golfing would've been publicly perceived if the OBL mission had turned into an peration Eagle Claw/Desert One or Somalia Charlie Foxtrot... Look at how GWB was criticized as being clueless for not reacting in a largely visible way and not abruptly ending his school visit on 9/11.

But that would require him to want to go to church. My mom's had plenty of serious surgeries in the past couple of years. Not once did I even think about going to church beforehand. I can pray just fine without making a public showing of it in a church.

Big difference, Mark. You're not POTUS. I'm not saying he was required to go to church, but POTUS, no matter who it is, is under a 24/7 microscope of public perception (especially in this modern age of instant information). So it was a major FAIL on the part of both POTUS and his handlers for him to decide to go golfing that day.

 

[TrainTrac]

As for Redfish's question:

I have only asked a simple question: "Would you have gone to play golf if you had ordered a raid and the troops were in the air?"



Anyone?

No.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

TrainTrac said:

So it was a major FAIL on the part of both POTUS and his handlers for him to decide to go golfing that day.

Only a FAIL in the sense that some feel he shouldn't have gone golfing. It didn't cause a failure in the mission, and had the mission gone bad I submit that golfing or not, the only thing Pres BHO could have done is essentially the same thing he could do whether in person in the situation room, or on phone and in-transit to the situation room.



What I think few people understand is that whether he is in the situation room or on a golf course, or taking a crap in the shitter, he is still on-duty, in-command and accessible to those he commands.



I think in some way those that are critical may be displaying a somewhat "blue collar" attitude. Anyone that has ever worked a salaried, professional job with flex time (and flex place) understands that the WHERE is not as important as the HOW or the WHAT when it comes to getting things done.



The issue, to the extent that there is one with him playing golf that day is one of perception. I don't want a president that is perceived to be anything...I want a president that IS those things I (we) need him to be.



TJR

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

Excellent response.



TrainTrac,

I agree with everything you said in your last post, and agree that Bush was criticised for doing things that he did following 9/11 to include what he did when he was in the classroom and first hear of the attack on the World Trade Center. He was very obviously concerned but did not cause a panick by quickly rushing out of the room. And in the end, it did not make any difference, and I think it was good that he kept his composure dispite the agony you could see on his face.



Certainly, none of our Presidents has reacted in moments of crisis like we would have...and maybe that's a good thing, and perhaps we should not judge them based on information that we don't really know about. We should only judge them on what they do about issues in front of us on a daily basis like the economy, jobs, etc.



...Rich

 

[Robert Thomas]

Amazing

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Redfish,



Amazing how? What amazes you?



That there is a difference of opinion, or that people don't see things so clearly the way you think they should be seen?



It's called a point-of-view. Different life experiences define them. Rather than simply be amazed by them, try to divorce yourself from your current thought process and ask some thoughtful questions about WHY those that think and feel differently than you do so.



That's how we get to common understanding (not necessarily agreement) on things.



I understand why you feel the way you do, and it doesn't amaze me. I just don't necessarily agree with you, nor do I feel you are wrong, I am right, or vice-versa.



TJR